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[suggestion] Possible Thresh Ult Rework

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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Thresh's Ult doesn't quite seem to fit with the rest of his kit at present. The idea behind it is solid, a prison like cage that will force the enemy to decide whether to break down the walls or disengage in some way. A coordinated team should be able to counter-play by having the tank make a path for the rest of the team.

At the moment though I feel its failing slightly to achieve this. Notably because it doesn't really do anything if no one breaks a wall. This causes it to feel like the purpose of the Ult is to have the walls get broken, but ideally it should feel like you can still achieve something just by placing 'The Box' down in the right location.

This is hampered further by the fact that you can't place it at range. Obviously however being able to dump 'The Box' on an enemy team from range would be a bit strong, so I propose it gets modified slightly.


The Focus


The main purpose or focus of the ability should IMO switch from 'wall's being broken' as it is at present, to instead what happens when the wall is up. There should be a significant effect which occurs while 'The Box' is active, which causes the enemy to chose whether to allow this to continue or to break the wall and stop it.


The Changes


- 'The Box' now only has one single wall, breaking any side of 'The Box' will cause the whole thing to disappear.
- 'The Box' is now a targeted skill, you must place it directly on an enemy champion.
- 'The Box' is much smaller such that any movement by the player will instantly break the wall.
- there is a 1/4 second root to stop the enemy from instantly breaking the wall as soon as it is cast.
- the player inside 'The Box' has no vision beyond the walls of 'The Box'.
- the slow component when a wall is broken has been reduced to 60% (from 99%).



Reasoning
I'll quickly go though and explain my reasoning.

This change retains the theme of a 'solitary confinement' type ability, as well as the concept that a team-mate can rescue a player caught inside it. However, it now guarantee's that one single player will definitely be trapped.

Additionally it grants a hard CC to a single target, but with multiple choices for the enemy to break it. It also fits with the torturer theme, since it's essentially a choice between bad and worse. Its a fairly sadistic mind game for the player caught inside, since they have no vision of anything that's happening around them. Do they wait it out and potentially get nuked? Do they eat the damage and make a run for it with the slow? Do they burn their flash? Its a 4 second (5second? I dont remember..) hard CC vs damage and a 2 second soft CC. Then again maybe their tank is just about to break the wall for them?


Conclusion
It has a lot of interesting uses and potential for psychological gameplay. By comparison the current iteration feels quite clunky and limited. It feels like you should be trying to drop it on someones head or its wasted. Even if you use it to zone a player it doesn't really last long enough or have a low enough cooldown to justify its own limited functionality.

Either way, its just an idea, thought I'd throw it out there. It might be too late for these kind of reworks, but hey. Leave comments if you like. Please keep it civil.



EDIT:

Quote:
This is a good idea. In fact, I tried some iterations that were similar. Unfortunately, it ran into a lot of small issues that added up to a sub-optimal ability.

At the time, I thought I wanted the ult to be a reliability spell that gave you the ability to execute the rest of your kit. Specifically, as a targeted spell it was just super powerful at setting up almost guaranteed Qs (and the name "Death Sentence" is pretty apt when it comes to landing this spell). It turns out, with this sort of added self-created reliability, Thresh would need to be toned down dramatically. Instead, I decided to embrace unreliability (and the added highs that such skills can have) as a central part of Thresh's design.

Now, the ability functions in the opposite direction -- if you land a skillshot, you can combo it with your walls to drag or push the enemy through, regardless of their willingness. This seemed more unique (the targeted version felt a bit like Nautilus to me) and just feels so cool.


@CertainlyT: In case you don't have time to trawl through the thread to find it, I had something else for you.

Quote:
I was thinking some more, and if you want to keep it as something slightly more 'unreliable' in terms of being able to combo off yourself, I had one more variation.

- 'The Box' can now be placed at range.
- when placed, all enemies in range of 'The Box' are instantly dragged for 1/4 second towards it's center before the walls are created.
- anyone inside 'The Box' has no vision beyond it's walls.
- base damage when breaking a wall increased.
- cooldown reduced.


This is what I'd see as an AOE version of the original I posted. The significant point being that you can't drop it on a players head anymore. That fact means you can justifiably increase the damage of walls and lower the cooldown. You could also revert the change to only being affected by a single wall. It's basically Orianna Ult and Graves 'Smoke Screen' combined, but with the damage component being far more unreliable. It also retains the psychological elements and team counters of the current design.

This version is even easier to escape from, but has the added bonus of being able to affect more than one person. It also allows players to dodge the skill shot as it comes in, although they have no vision before it enters the box so that's easier said than done. Still less reliable though.

This is probably more in line with what you are now going for at least.


This second version probably doesn't need the vision impairment component for balance. It achieves the purpose displacing the enemy and forcing them to group up if they wish to escape with minimal damage, allowing for some fairly brutal AOE comps.


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-11-2013

I actually find this quite interesting. Sort of a combination of Amumu's ult and Grave's W. Oh and it's 5 seconds by the by.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-11-2013

5 seconds might be a bit much if it worked as I've suggested so might need to lower it to 4 as part of the changes.

One main difference to note with this is that it will only ever be a single target CC, perhaps dragging one more player into it to assist. Whereas the current form can potentially affect an entire team.


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Whereas the current form can potentially affect an entire team.


Except the current form never does because of it's short availability and exceptionally small radius of effect.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Akuen:
Except the current form never does because of it's short availability and exceptionally small radius of effect.


This is exactly the problem. Its just not dangerous enough, you can simply ignore it if it doesn't get dunked on your head...


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
This is exactly the problem. Its just not dangerous enough, you can simply ignore it if it doesn't get dunked on your head...


Which is why I liked it's original variation. The team generally protects the adc. So when they screw up and get too close you Q in and ult and they all manage to hit at least one wall. It was exceptionally versatile. Your variation I like more then the current iteration. Not sure if I'd prefer it to the original however.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Akuen:
Which is why I liked it's original variation. The team generally protects the adc. So when they screw up and get too close you Q in and ult and they all manage to hit at least one wall. It was exceptionally versatile. Your variation I like more then the current iteration. Not sure if I'd prefer it to the original however.


With the old version I feel it mostly turned into a game of, 'how many people can I get to walk into as many of my walls as possible!'. Which while it was very strong, didn't really feel like it fitted with the kit, at least to me. Even now that's basically how it plays out in game, with the difference that there's a limit on how much damage any one person can take. So they basically just added some extreme Diminishing Returns to lower its power.


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Jace77

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Isn't the box for landing a q on someone then trapping them? or dropping in the middle of a team?


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Jace77:
Isn't the box for landing a q on someone then trapping them? or dropping in the middle of a team?


I think that's exactly how the skill was intended to be used, yes. In reality though it appears most people would rather deliberately place it so that a wall lands directly on the enemy.

It seems that the nuke damage and 99% slow for 2 seconds is far more useful than simply confining the player for 5 seconds to a small area of the map.


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Maluss

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Interesting idea; however I doubt someone will actually stop and wait for the box to expire, most people panic when heavily crowd controlled (including vision loss) and will inevitably be clicking towards escape, activated the box anyway. With the current set-up there is still the ability for the opponent to move around slightly within the box, as well as have vision of his/her team and be able to react appropriately

Got to look at the design from Thresh's perspective and his victim's perspective, its only fair