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Crystalline Flask Feedback

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DeRPNT

Member

01-09-2013

I do not like the nerf of the cost of the item as this forces every jungler to only take machete and 5 HP pots. Pre-patch, certain junglers would be able to benefit from the Wealth mastery (+50 Gold) and be able to machete + flask start instead of machete + pots. The buff to the item regeneration is not necessary, and so is the increase in price


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Xyltin

Senior Member

01-10-2013

But the flask needs to get more expensive. If you are only nerfing the reg numbers, you will still be able to get a flask + 5 pots + ward.

I think it is 5-10 gold too expensive (actually 320-330 would be perfect), but it needed to get up above at least 275 gold, what would have made it uninteresting for junglers anyways.


Now Riot only has to limit pots to 5 per stack and only one stack possible (per type of pot) and we won't see the high pot sustain lanes anymore.


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Xemeron

Senior Member

01-10-2013

Quote:
Xyltin:
But the flask needs to get more expensive. If you are only nerfing the reg numbers, you will still be able to get a flask + 5 pots + ward.

I think it is 5-10 gold too expensive, but it needed to get up above at least 275 gold, what would have made it uninteresting for junglers anyways.


Now Riot only has to limit pots to 5 per stack and only one stack possible (per type of pot) and we won't see the high pot sustain lanes anymore.


Yeah cause god forbid that there is more than one viable way to start a game...


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Xyltin

Senior Member

01-10-2013

Quote:
Xemeron:
Yeah cause god forbid that there is more than one viable way to start a game...


That is not the problem.
The problem is that flask + ward + 5 pots is THE BEST start for most champs.
And the flask gives you some power till late game. 10 HP reg per second is a good amount in a team fight (that's why it is one of the top 3 most seen items in an inventory when the game ends).


Why are AD assassins so good early game now?
Cause they can't get harassed. 5 pots + flask = 1050 HP
And then a ward.
Try to kill someone that has around 2+k HP early game and a ward against ganks (base HP + HP per lvl + base reg + pots + flask)
When that happens on both sides, it is ok. Both want to trade and both want to sustain.
But in the mid lane, assassins want to sustain through the early game where they are bad and AP champs want to stop them early on before they reach 6 as much as possible (deny CS and XP if possible and hold them down to not get the burst they need at lvl 6).

Same with some top lane matchups. You are removing the whole counter play against certain champs and roles only to let 2-3 jungelrs have the flask start as a possibility when using utility masteries?

And the problem is not the flask and its strength, but that it is so cheap that it allows a ward and 5 pots besides it.


But if you want to argument with more variety > counter play options then you could go back and unnerf BC.
BC is not good on most ADC. Even before the nerfs it was not really an important item on them. With the nerfs they removed it from ADC, only to balance it for Brusiers and Assassins. It is the same thing.
Do you want BC balanced for the most abusive part, or do you want it to be good on the least abusive champs (ADC)?



Why 320-330 gold costs and not the current 345?
It would allow people to get flask + ward + 2 pots or flask + 4 pots.
You would lose either 390 HP or a ward and 90 HP compared to the old flask start.
At the same time it won't allow you to wait for another pot (you are missing at least 20 gold).
With the current costs, you are losing too much sustain or the ward what means you can't push or trade as hard as you need to go back very early once to get an advantage out of the flask. You will need to go B and lose CS and XP. And that XP lose can be devastating in a lot of lanes early on.

To get the old reg/g efficiency you would need 280g for the new flask. So in the end it is still a 14-17% cost increase as a nerf and a starting nerf.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

01-10-2013

I think it should be 300 at new power. Totally appropriate.


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EverythingIsData

Senior Member

01-11-2013

So much for making the Utility tree more attractive in Season 3. Without Machete + Flask, we're back to junglers only caring about Offense/Defense again.

If this change is about lane sustain, can't we do something about THAT, without removing an interesting mastery path for junglers in the process?


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Cause they can't get harassed. 5 pots + flask = 1050 HP


I think you're forgetting something exceptionally important. You can't stack pots and flasks at the same time. It's one, not both.


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TheBakerman

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Akuen:
I think you're forgetting something exceptionally important. You can't stack pots and flasks at the same time. It's one, not both.


So? It's still the same amount of health regenerating.


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
So? It's still the same amount of health regenerating.


No, it's not. They can only regenerate a maximum of 750hp or 300hp and 120mana.

They can not regenerate 1050hp by stacking everything all at once. That would be unbalanced. It's fine as it is now.


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Talamare

Senior Member

01-11-2013

I expected a Flask nerf because of how amazing it was

but this is seriously over doing it

The point of Flask is for someone who is falling behind to be able to save some gold and lane a little better

The way you set it, if anyone tries to buy this to catch up, they are falling behind even more

Seriously, 350 gold is brutal and way too expensive for this item


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