Phantom Dancer OP?

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HuskyKurai

Member

01-06-2013

Currently in Pre Season 3 there are several different items with Attack Speed buffs. Many of them are used, of course, for the AD Carry. 3 of the 50% attk speed items are a Zephyr, Phantom Dancer and Nashors tooth. (summoners rift only ones). Out of these 3 equal attk speed items I only see 1 of them more then anything. Phantom Dancer.

Right now, the phantom dancer has had a 'nerf-buff' on itself from S2 to PS3. attk speed reduced by 5% (not a big deal), movement speed reduced from 12% to 5% (now you at least have a chance to get away and not get outrun easily), added no unit collision (well now they can all pretend their Hecarim! or Fizz!)

The Zephyr and Nashors Tooth dont seem to be out shined by a Phantom that easily but theres one issue I find making the Phantom an always NEEDED ADC item. 30% critical Chance on the Phantom Dancer. Its almost a 1/3 chance to get a critical with the item alone and when you get one, its 200% of your damage.

Its removing the point of getting a BF Sword to start, since you can buy a Zeal for 1175 gold with attack speed, movement speed and a crit chance, before the enemy can get a 1550 gold BF Sword. Faster attk speed and a chance to crit can outdo a 45 damage BF sword which doesnt even double your base damage at Champion lv 1.

THEN when you get a damage item with the Phantom dancer, you get the Infinity Edge with a 25% chance and making your critical damage do 250% rather then 200% damage. 55% chance to cause a 250% critical. and of your damage is between 250 and 300 late game, your just tearing through armor without a Last Whisper at all!

Besides being with a different critical item, 30% is enough for most players to ignore the use of a Zephyr's tenacity and movement speed, or the Nashors mana regen and Ability Power, making them worthless to an ADC player and getting little use in most games.
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I say nerf the Phantom dancer down to a 15% or 20% crit chance. as low as it seems to half its current %, its really needed to show that its not the only item u need to have attk speed. A Statikk Shiv has a 40% attk speed but a 20% crit chance, so making the Phantom Dancer a 15% crit chance would, in a way, be a balance for the Shiv to be noticed as well, for champions other then the occasional Gangplank or Ezreal. even a 20% would be fine since the Phantom IE combo would be at a 45% chance rather then a 55%.

any other thoughts on the Phantom Dancers critical chance?


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MrGutWrench

Senior Member

01-06-2013

When playing ADC, phantom dancers is basically a must because of the crit chance. It's just too good to give up.


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Yuan Shikai

Senior Member

01-06-2013

Nashor's Tooth and Zephyr are not to be brought up in this, cause they have an absolutely different purpose from PD and are not designed for AD-Carries, so I do not even see why you bring those up.

Likewise, Stattik Sgiv is by no means in a bad spot atm, I see quite some ADC's pick it up and it is not by a long shot a bad choice on quite a few melee champs either. It is as good on many melee champs as Ionic Spark was, it just does not give Ioni'c Sparks health but is supplemented by the fact that it builds out of a GP5-item.


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HuskyKurai

Member

01-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuan Shikai View Post
Nashor's Tooth and Zephyr are not to be brought up in this, cause they have an absolutely different purpose from PD and are not designed for AD-Carries, so I do not even see why you bring those up.

Likewise, Stattik Sgiv is by no means in a bad spot atm, I see quite some ADC's pick it up and it is not by a long shot a bad choice on quite a few melee champs either. It is as good on many melee champs as Ionic Spark was, it just does not give Ioni'c Sparks health but is supplemented by the fact that it builds out of a GP5-item.
A Zephyr and Nashors cant be used on adc's huh?
Zephyr has tenacity which u dont get because of the Greaves boots, it has 20 free damage and move speed along with cool down. it all works with adc's but apparently you cant figure that out.
Nashors Tooth works for adc's that have AP like Kogmaw Tristana and Ezreal.

i also never said the Shiv was in a bad spot.


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Yuan Shikai

Senior Member

01-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyKurai View Post
A Zephyr and Nashors cant be used on adc's huh?
Zephyr has tenacity which u dont get because of the Greaves boots, it has 20 free damage and move speed along with cool down. it all works with adc's but apparently you cant figure that out.
Nashors Tooth works for adc's that have AP like Kogmaw Tristana and Ezreal.

i also never said the Shiv was in a bad spot.
They CAN be used of course, but that does not change the fact that they are BAD on them.

No AD Carry wants Tenacity, cause CC reduction does not help them worth anything, any AD carry that is struck by hard CC will die anyways, they simply do not NEED the reduction, it does not make any difference on them. They do not have the survivability to escape after the CC wore off by a LONG shot, no matter whether they have tenacity or not.

And although KogMaw CAN use the stats of Nashor's Tooth other items are sitll better on him as ASPD/AP Kogmaw is just...BAD, and Nashor's Tooth is simply and easily said, and that is a FACT, a HORRIBLE item on Ezreal and Tristana and the worst waste of money I can imagine. Tristana does not need AP mid/lategame, her skill damage only drives her on EARLYGAME and at that point she does not need AP while Ezreal scales not bad on AP, but Nashor's Tooth just is foregoing any BETTER item he could build.

Of cousse Nashor's Tooth and Zephyr CAN work on some AD Carries, it does not change the fact that they are not INTENDED to be viable on them, that they were not DESIGNED for them, that building them on AD carries is sub-optimal and has a good chance of losing games and that you waste money for stuff that is, you know, actually not made to be good on AD carries and was designed for entirely different roles.


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HuskyKurai

Member

01-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuan Shikai View Post
They CAN be used of course, but that does not change the fact that they are BAD on them.

No AD Carry wants Tenacity, cause CC reduction does not help them worth anything, any AD carry that is struck by hard CC will die anyways, they simply do not NEED the reduction, it does not make any difference on them. They do not have the survivability to escape after the CC wore off by a LONG shot, no matter whether they have tenacity or not.

And although KogMaw CAN use the stats of Nashor's Tooth other items are sitll better on him as ASPD/AP Kogmaw is just...BAD, and Nashor's Tooth is simply and easily said, and that is a FACT, a HORRIBLE item on Ezreal and Tristana and the worst waste of money I can imagine. Tristana does not need AP mid/lategame, her skill damage only drives her on EARLYGAME and at that point she does not need AP while Ezreal scales not bad on AP, but Nashor's Tooth just is foregoing any BETTER item he could build.

Of cousse Nashor's Tooth and Zephyr CAN work on some AD Carries, it does not change the fact that they are not INTENDED to be viable on them, that they were not DESIGNED for them, that building them on AD carries is sub-optimal and has a good chance of losing games and that you waste money for stuff that is, you know, actually not made to be good on AD carries and was designed for entirely different roles.
Tenacity works for everyone. it doesnt matter who or what they are. the chance to get away or attack faster after a fear or stun is good enough for them. a Nashors on Kog'maw works because his W gets an extra 1% for the % of HP per shot. if Zephyr was never intended for adc's then nobody else can use it. it gives 20 extra damage so no ap should use it and if an adc cant use it then it was just a wasted item.


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Recaiden

Member

01-06-2013

The critical chance is the core of the item. If you remove it or nerf it by 33 or 50%, then it's really not serving its purpose anymore. While attackspeed is good, Zephyr is intended for bruisers and some Junglers, and Nashor's for hybrid builds, not ADC. The AS is important for PD, but it's not OP and not outshining those items, it's just for a different purpose.


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Yuan Shikai

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyKurai View Post
Tenacity works for everyone. it doesnt matter who or what they are. the chance to get away or attack faster after a fear or stun is good enough for them. a Nashors on Kog'maw works because his W gets an extra 1% for the % of HP per shot. if Zephyr was never intended for adc's then nobody else can use it. it gives 20 extra damage so no ap should use it and if an adc cant use it then it was just a wasted item.

That is just wrong, as I said, an adc that is hit by a hard CC IS DEAD, no matter whether he has tenacity or not, except the people who hard CC'd him are dumb, Zephyr IS NOT DESIGEND FOR THEM, that is simply a fact-

Zephyr is an item that is good on many non ad-carries who want Tenacity. scale good with ASPD but do maybe not want Mercury Treads due to other reasons (like not needing the MR or wanting Ninja Tabi), examples being Shen, Warwick, Irelia, Jax, Kayle, Nocturne, Shyvanna, Nocturne, Volibear, Xin Zhao


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Hyet

Junior Member

01-07-2013

Phantom Dancer is for AD Carries.
Nashor's Tooth is for those pesky AP Xin Zhao's, Teemo's and possibly Master Yi's.
Zephyr is for assassins, Tenacity + True damage burn and Movement Speed.

Every item has it's own uses and is meant for different people, Phantom Dancer doesn't 'outshine' the others, it just has a different purpose.


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FreeGothitelle

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Phantom Dancer is the attack speed item of choice for AD carries
They shouldn't really taking any others. (besides trinity, which is more used for the sheen proc rather than attack speed, hence why ezreal generally runs gauntlet now for the slow rather than some extra damage and attack speed).

Stattik shiv is an interesting alternative, though it gives less attack speed and crit chance (with a measly 1% extra movement speed), it does have a nice passive that is useful early > mid game. Late game a PD simply outclasses it though.


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