"Pure" Tanks

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Bigmantree

Member

10-18-2010

People disregard the importance of Nunu's Consume in his being a tank. It's a great self-heal on a short cooldown and can make a huge difference in team battles, the majority of which have minions nearby.

He might only be an off-tank/support-tank but he is a **** good one. I'd encourage you to try him again :P

Edit: Wow, think this might be my shortest post ever (is that sad?).


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Kinkz

Junior Member

10-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmantree View Post
People disregard the importance of Nunu's Consume in his being a tank. It's a great self-heal on a short cooldown and can make a huge difference in team battles, the majority of which have minions nearby.

He might only be an off-tank/support-tank but he is a **** good one. I'd encourage you to try him again :P

Edit: Wow, think this might be my shortest post ever (is that sad?).
I have not played nunu more than... 10 times ever, and half were in practice games. My experience comes from playing against nunu (often =). I just dont see him being a threat beyond his ultimate so there is no reason to ever focus nunu first once his ulti is down. He is a support who builds with beefy stats.

You could argue that Nunu builds well with tank type stats and therefore can tank things like towers and baron, however the definition of tank I am choosing to use (there are so many!) is outlined in my post and I just don't think nunu really fits there. I have played Swain as a tank build before, it actually does fine, but it doesnt make him a tank. Plus in the case of nunu the characters I generally "main" such as Garen, Galio, Amumu and recently Kassadin can all shut his ultimate off so for me Nunu is just a walking white lump who I save silence for while killing his teammates =/. This is of course personal experience, every other hybrid tank you can't ignore for some reason, if if you do, they will be able to have an impact on the fight either through CC abilities (Malphite, Amumu, Alistair, Cho'Gath) or damage (Garen, Mordekaiser + your best carry as a pet etc.) Nunu is too easily shut down imo. Now of course Nunu is not useless, his ulti is really evil, especially against teams who can't shut it down asap, I just don't think he is really a tank, he is basically a support who generally gets built as a tank so he can support better.


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Viridian

Member

10-18-2010

I posted in a different thread that there is no such thing as a "pure" tank in LOL. Again we see the misconception that a tank is a champion who can force the team to target them above their team mates. However, only three champions (Shen, Rammus and Galio) can actually do so. Being the first into the fray isn't the same as forcing a team to focus you, and again, if anything a squishy carry is going to achieve that better than a high-HP high-defense melee character.

Given that a tank in LOL cannot be expected to maintain aggro, the role should be redefined as a champion that is able to sustain a team fight and, where possible, prevent aggression onto allies through abilities such as disables.

Amumu, arguably the best tank in the game, cannot force opponents to target him over everyone else. However, his effectiveness as a tank comes from several skills that allow him to initiate and control the battle. Amumu isn't that tough of a champion (compared to Alistar, for example), but he has one of the best team-fight initiates in the game.

In contrast, Taric, widely respected as a Support/Tank, has no way to force enemies to attack him. While naturally having high survivability, he can't actually do a whole lot -- he can't really damage anyone and thus is a low threat to the enemy team and most enemies will avoid him. However, he is potent in healing, which is why he naturally has a higher priority -- which is the reason why players stack defensive items on him in order to deter a concerted effort to eliminate him.

Note that survivability isn't necessarily a requirement on a tank. The majority of survivability comes from items, which any champion can buy. Anivia can take damage just as well as Mordekaiser given the right items (and with egg, GA and Zil Ulti, can do so many times over). People get defensive items on a tank because they need to be able to survive longer in battle to be effective -- NOT because they are tagged as tank. Certain tankish characters, such as Sion and Singed, benefit more from going AP. Morgana, the archetypal caster, has more survivability than many "tanks".

In practice, a LOL tank acts as the first man into the breach. He should be able to sustain enough damage to prevent the team from getting wiped, but should also be able to punish the enemy team should they choose not to attack. It's more accurate to say that the majority of tanks are supporters or melee dps characters. A "good" tank, in the current metagame, is a champion with an effective range of skills that enable him to initiate, support and/or disable in a team fight.


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Viridian

Member

10-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinkz View Post
I have not played nunu more than... 10 times ever, and half were in practice games. My experience comes from playing against nunu (often =). I just dont see him being a threat beyond his ultimate so there is no reason to ever focus nunu first once his ulti is down. He is a support who builds with beefy stats.

You could argue that Nunu builds well with tank type stats and therefore can tank things like towers and baron, however the definition of tank I am choosing to use (there are so many!) is outlined in my post and I just don't think nunu really fits there. I have played Swain as a tank build before, it actually does fine, but it doesnt make him a tank. Plus in the case of nunu the characters I generally "main" such as Garen, Galio, Amumu and recently Kassadin can all shut his ultimate off so for me Nunu is just a walking white lump who I save silence for while killing his teammates =/. This is of course personal experience, every other hybrid tank you can't ignore for some reason, if if you do, they will be able to have an impact on the fight either through CC abilities (Malphite, Amumu, Alistair, Cho'Gath) or damage (Garen, Mordekaiser + your best carry as a pet etc.) Nunu is too easily shut down imo. Now of course Nunu is not useless, his ulti is really evil, especially against teams who can't shut it down asap, I just don't think he is really a tank, he is basically a support who generally gets built as a tank so he can support better.
This is an example of how misleading the term "tank" can be. Nunu is a caster (he's not even support -- he has no skills that supports his team). You can't really build Nunu as anything other than a caster given his skills. You can stack defensive items to increase his survivability, but doing so should serve to prolong his effectiveness in battle (namely to pop his ulti) rather than to sustain a battle, which he himself cannot do. Nunu with high AP and a Banshee's is arguably more effective than a Nunu with a pure tank item set.


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Kinkz

Junior Member

10-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
This is an example of how misleading the term "tank" can be. Nunu is a caster (he's not even support -- he has no skills that supports his team). You can't really build Nunu as anything other than a caster given his skills. You can stack defensive items to increase his survivability, but doing so should serve to prolong his effectiveness in battle (namely to pop his ulti) rather than to sustain a battle, which he himself cannot do. Nunu with high AP and a Banshee's is arguably more effective than a Nunu with a pure tank item set.
Did you mean to quote me? or the guy who quoted me? You just reiterated what I said in different words =). Oh and Nunu gets counted as a support due to Boil Blood, which on a physical carry can be quite devestating.

In the end though, Tank is a subjective term. I say a pure tank is a class who can soak up damage AND force the enemy to attack him. I discount galio as his taunt is on a long cooldown (ofc this is arguable) so this leaves only Shen and Rammus. A hybrid tank is someone who can be built with tank items (Sunfire cape, banshees etc) and perform their job (CC, damage etc.) well enough they simply cannot be ignored. In this category is Amumu as his DPS is decent, especially with a sunfire cape or two and while he has no taunt to force the enemy to attack him, he simply can't be ignored because he will tick your lifedown with sunfire capes, tantrum and despair skills.

I do not consider Nunu a tank in any way, as you said, he takes tank items simply so he can pop his ult, imo once his ult is down, theres no reason to attack him, unlike players like Cho'gath who will be knocking you in the air and silencing you all if you ignore him to last.

Oh and I don't mean hybrid tanks are the number one threat in a team so you must focus them or lose, obviously Carries are always number one =).


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hypershatter

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Senior Member

10-18-2010

nunu is offtank/burst caster/support, most people think he is a one trick pony once his ult is down. but only noobs pops ult right away in teamfights.

nunu needs to build caster so it make him a huge threat in teamfights. with the mandatory banshees + merc treads, nunu have decent survivability already. + RoA more health.

in teamfights, by delaying casting ult nunu can make the enemy team guessing. if the enemy team use all CCs early, they would eat nunu's ult. if they dont use it, lack of CCs make them vulnerable to your team's dpsers. +with banshee u can prevent one CC on u during cast. and the old "bush" trick works excellent in jungle fights.

after ult, nunu can bloodboil carries, spam nukable ice blast (which deals huge dmg with low cc). nunu can slow assasins from getting to carries. nunu needs to be focused down or will wreck enemy team.

in laning phrase, nunu is excellent babysitter cause it can heal itself with consume. dont forget every 8th attack gives the next cast free of mana.

because nunu makes enemy team want to kill him and is generally tanky, he is considered an off-tank.


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IntFam

Senior Member

10-18-2010

Wow. Suddenly this is a nunu thread. I'm still interested in seeing where the tank discussion, though.


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Pureva

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Senior Member

10-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntFam View Post
-Above all else, a tank needs to have strong initiation skills. If he's the last one to the party, no one's going to attack him, and he's not filling his role as well as he should.
Guinsoo looks at this as the primary defining attribute of a tank in League of Legends. You mentioned Shen and Rammus, but you should definitely consider Galio and Amumu as "tanky" based not only on this, but on all your criteria. Amumu has amazing initiation and multiple ways of keeping the squishies safe. Galio also has amazing initiation and multiple ways of helping protect the squishies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Useless******* View Post
a tank is anything capable of forcing people to attack them even if they dont want to.
This definition of a tank comes from an entirely different genre of game. DotA had lots of tanks, but only one taunt. LoL has lots of tanks, but only three taunts. The ability to force aggro is not required to tank in League of Legends.


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Zuphest

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Master Recruiter

10-18-2010

I think what makes a tank is the ability to protect your teammates and shall survive long enough if the enemy team decides to take on you first.

First off with the generally agreed portion, survivability.
It should take the enemy team long enough to kill you that your team can takeout most of their team.
But unless the other team is completely out of their minds, they will go for your carries instead of you.

Therefore you also need to be able to stop the enemy team from taking down your carry, if they try to do so, you should stop them by giving them a stun/taunt/knockup, and hope that your carry does their job well and punish them hard.

So basically I do not consider anyone without a hard CC to be a tank.

And I do consider Malphite as a tank.


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Hefty Sak

Senior Member

10-18-2010

Rammus + Shen = win

Alistair is good too, but he's not as helpful.