Updating Udyr's Passive to help him in S3

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Vencu

Senior Member

01-02-2013

incoming to the pbe:

Udyr

[Passive] - Monkey's Agility
Now also gives 4% Armor and Magic Resist

http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22...s-for-1-3-2013


personally i don't think it's enough. One thing about udyr is, he is the only bruiser in game without some form of ranged attack or gapcloser of some sort if he had either one of these he would be much better off. His bear stance is supposed to be how he gets into range, but it's just so weak. maybe have a cc immunity during the first second of it? or as has been suggested ghost?


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IS13ff69c642974b3ec23a7

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Udyr's problem isn't and has never been tankiness, this PBE change really doesn't do anything .Not even for jungle because of out of all junglers in S3, Udyr has the least problems with new jungle.

I'm still hoping Riot would change it to giving Tenacity stacks, but I'm not so sure they really know how to 'fix' Udyr. Every champ released now has a gap-closer, or some kind of ranged CC, whatever their role is (AP, bruiser etc.). A pure melee bruiser just doesn't fit and Udyr's kit is too outdated.

He needs a way different change than just +armor/magic resist.

CC immunity on Bear for some time after activation sounds pretty good, or maybe high Tenacity just after activation. Something like that would be much better than buffing Turtle Stance of all things.


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turulHAARP

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baihu View Post
Udyr's problem is and has never been tankiness, this PBE change really doesn't do anything .Not even for jungle because of out of all junglers in S3, Udyr has the least problems with new jungle.

I'm still hoping Riot would change it to giving Tenacity stacks, but I'm not so sure they really know how to 'fix' Udyr. Every champ released now has a gap-closer, or some kind of ranged CC, whatever their role is (AP, bruiser etc.). A pure melee bruiser just doesn't fit and Udyr's kit is too outdated.

He needs a way different change than just +armor/magic resist.

CC immunity on Bear for some time after activation sounds pretty good, or maybe high Tenacity just after activation. Something like that would be much better than buffing Turtle Stance of all things.
While i agree with the first part about the tankiness however giving him tenacity in any form would break him.Have you tried to build spirit of ancient golem?In my opinion it's a great item on him.
"Problems" i have while playing udyr are:
The attack speed when i am not using Tiger stance.It feels really slow even with 3 stack of passive.
The ms bonus on early levels of Bear stance.Either an increased duration or % increase would be nice.

While the bonus resistance is nice and all it's not necessary as i see.Tried to buy boots of swiftness or mobility on him but i lose out too much dmg without Sorcerer shoes and the less dmg costed many ganks.Let alone going 1v1 against the other jungle without Sorcerer shoes can be very risky.

Also his basic attack range is pathetic.I am not sure it's even 125 because it doesn't feel like that at all.An increase on it to 150 could be another nice buff to him.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

01-03-2013

I don't understand the complaints.

OK so if Udyr is tanky enough...but lacks mobility...take this 12% resist and armor buff and say ok, now I can take that 12% gold I would of used for defense and buy MS instead.

So you get yourself a Zephyr over a wit's end or you get your boots enchant early over a ruby crystal...or whatever.

Fudge your build order a bit to compensate for his weakness by utilizing his new strength...

These complaints are silly... learn how to improvise....


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Rafael Elendil

Senior Member

01-03-2013

I had come with 2 ideas on the past month, and since the OP gives one that is very similar to the one i first thought, i decided to write them down here.

First (the one i think would be the hardest to balance and MAY happen to not solve anything at all):
Make all his stance level ups add something to the passive:

Tiger: Adds 2/4/6/8/10% extra AS per stack.
Turtle: Adds 1/2/3/4/5% exrtra armor/mr per stack.
Bear: Adds 1/2/3/4/5% extra MS per stack.
Phoenix: Adds 2/4/6/8/10 Flat AD(double ap) per stack

Note the like skills you cant max out everything and this changes would make udyr the ultimate behemoth that still can be kited but is almost invincible when in reach(thats why it can happen to solve nothing at all in the end)

Second: The simplest, not completely new mechanic, but very in touch with general lore and feeling of the character.

Change Tiger Stance from:

Stance Activation: Udyr's next attack will deal his current attack damage in addition to magic damage over 2 seconds. In addition, Udyr gains an attack speed buff for 5 seconds. This stacks additively with his persistent attack speed bonus.
Persistent effect: Udyr's attack speed is increased.

To:

Stance Activation: Udyr's next attack will deal his current attack damage in addition to magic damage over 2 seconds and will have increased attack range making him leap to his target.
Persistent effect: Udyr's attack speed is increased.

The increase can be fixed(like rengar) or increase based on Tiger Stance skill level, but that would allow udyr to have an gap closer, that he will have to time carefully to use with Bear stance if you need a stun, but also would make udyr able to team fight without that much dependency of Flash. Almost 90% of the times i use flash as udyr is to gap close, not to flee, and end up with nothing to flee when the situation arises.

I think they could at least give it a try at the PBE.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

01-03-2013

That would be OP Raf...

Really really OP.

Especially the way you worded it.

Tiger stance is an activate, but you don't need to be in the stance any more for the cd to start refreshing and yet you still get the next hit is a super hit deal.

So smart/good tiger udyrs know how to tiger prime.

That's hitting tiger stance before you reach your target, then going into bear stance and your first hit stuns and melts them with tiger's special first attack. The CD on tiger is already up for a second.

What you are suggesting with a leap would break Udyr...

He could leap in with a primed tiger and have a second leap ready to go at any time making it impossible to get away from him.

With just a little cdr, you would make Udyr like Rengar...except a rengar that is ALWAYS IN A BUSH no matter where he is...

You'd turn Udyr into the most mobile champion in the game from one of the least mobile buisers...


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Rafael Elendil

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
That would be OP Raf...

Really really OP.

Especially the way you worded it.

Tiger stance is an activate, but you don't need to be in the stance any more for the cd to start refreshing and yet you still get the next hit is a super hit deal.

So smart/good tiger udyrs know how to tiger prime.

That's hitting tiger stance before you reach your target, then going into bear stance and your first hit stuns and melts them with tiger's special first attack. The CD on tiger is already up for a second.

What you are suggesting with a leap would break Udyr...

He could leap in with a primed tiger and have a second leap ready to go at any time making it impossible to get away from him.

With just a little cdr, you would make Udyr like Rengar...except a rengar that is ALWAYS IN A BUSH no matter where he is...

You'd turn Udyr into the most mobile champion in the game from one of the least mobile buisers...
Like i said, i dont know the values... and anyway, mobility is what Udyr needs, not a lot, but some. Since his abilities are already at 6sec cd, i really dont know how they could make it.

One thing that i know is thet 2 sec 15 MS is sometime UNOTICIABLE... sometimes i just keep hitting E thinking that Bear didnt go in since it seems to not change at all.

Just a little mobility of some sorts, maybe some time of leap... without it is just going around the same problems over and over.

Not weak, not competitive either.


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Kaosovic

Senior Member

01-03-2013

If Udyr had an active debuff of slows with e activated, or ignoring collision with e up, I think would fix his issues early on for ganking.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

01-03-2013

He's very competitive in my experience.

I'm looking forward to maining him as my jungle after this patch.

His mobility issues aren't that bad. Especially with the new boots upgrade.

With the distortion upgrade on boots of mobility you have an excellent mobility combo for very little gold.

Boots of mobility grant you 105 movement speed on top of his 345 base. Then bear rank 1 gives 15% more. for a total MS of 517.5. That's enough to gap close on anyone.

Then you take flash and the distortion upgrade and 1 point in utility to low its CD a flat 15sec.

Distortion takes the cd from 300 to 225 and that one point puts it to 210. That means every 3.5 minutes you have flash. That's every 2nd or 3rd gank.

Learn how to tiger prime and all you need is 1 hit and you can melt someone.

Udyr is going to be solid...he's not ever going to be Lee Sin...but hopefully some day Riot wakes up and nerfs that doosh...

But Udyr will be as strong as any other AD jungler...


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Rafael Elendil

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Sorry Bro, but you also need to learn about MS diminishing returns.

I build every MS possible Udyr and dont even come CLOSE to 500 most of the time... it wont happen with 15% MS boost.

After 400 ms all ms you get is cut by an increasing amoungh, that increases even further near 500... that are the "softcaps" people talk about.

He doesnt need MUCH, but he needs something. He is tanky, he has damage, he has come cc and all, but positioning him is very hard, ganking is one of the weakest (i jungle most of the time with very wide array of champs) of all champs available.

Thats the reason i dont find him competitive. Not that much, since you have better options based on what you want:

Initiator, ganker, farmer(well, he is probably one of the best, but since jungle is gold starved at the moment, it doesnt make for anything at all), assassin, CCer, utility...

Only one of the best as farmer, and his CC ability is tied to the ability to stay on target, so the lack of mobility also hinder his ability to be a good crownd controller.

Just a little added mobility, an he would be very good without having a broken mobility.