Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Sasori of Krieg

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Senior Member

11-20-2010

So why are so many champions made 50x harder to play than others and when mastered worse than simple champions?

Believe it or not 5 stun teams are not fun, but they are allowed to exist. Why not make stuns have diminishing effects when targeting the same person within a short time frame?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-20-2010
124 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasori of Krieg View Post
So why are so many champions made 50x harder to play than others and when mastered worse than simple champions?

Believe it or not 5 stun teams are not fun, but they are allowed to exist. Why not make stuns have diminishing effects when targeting the same person within a short time frame?
that's what we call a play balance issue ;p If you post about them, we may fix them...


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-20-2010
125 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel J View Post
Zil, I think you need to make a tldr version for each thing :X. I didn't understand most of what you typed >.>
that's fine, the intended audience is game designers and those who wish to be game designers. You need to be able to understand this stuff to do those jobs. I didn't make it THAT complex.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-20-2010
126 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TibbersAndAnnie View Post
What about Gangplank's ult? Sure it has a big field, but many times have I used this on a fleeing champion, had them run through the full extent of it, and come out unscathed.
Well, that would be an example of bad design. I said we've done a lot of it...


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Captain Falcon

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Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stexe View Post
Since when has Ignite been nerfed? If has only been buffed due to not being removed by Cleanse (which could be seen as a nerf to Cleanse).
It was nerfed in the same patch that is was made to not be removed by Cleanse.









(hint: they reduced the scaling to 20 per level instead of 25 per level to weaken it to compensate a little for it not being cleansable. No matter how small, it was still nerfed.)


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-20-2010
127 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
I'd love it if he did, but this one caused brought about a tidal wave of amateur designers predicting the downfall of LoL. I'd be surprised if Zileas still sees it as a good idea to have posted this thread.

But again, I personally thought it was great.
You know, the amateur designers went both ways. Professional ones generally sent me nice notes about it ;p


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-20-2010
128 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnarokChu View Post
You can't prevent burden of knowledge for a "competitive" video game, to the point were everybody can play the game ignorant of what the champs exactly do.
Absolutely correct. You can however minimize it, or pick method A over method B, where method A has the same gameplay, but is easier to understand.

Quote:
Down the line you have to get your ass to read a few hero abilities or play them yourself. Or use common video game sense, which you should have unless you never played a video game outside of shooters/puzzlers.
Or design the same ability in a way that is more evident to players.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-20-2010
129 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadi View Post
Basically, as long as you need to be able to counter opponents in order to win, you have burden of knowledge on you.

If you do not have to counter your opponents, there can be no strategic skill involved.

Did I catch the basis of this argument, now?
I would argue that something like Dark Binding has a lot of nuance and depth, and has almost 0 burden of knowledge.


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Mercurius

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Or We Could **** the Player!!1111oneoneone
This is where you straight up screw over the player, usually with dramatic flair, or maybe just try to make the player feel crappy in a way that isn't contributing to the fun of the game. These range in severity, but examples usually are spawned because the designer is a pretentious wanker who likes to show what a smart dude he is and how stupid the player is. I do not respect designers who engage in this pattern intentionally, and encourage any design lead out there to immediately fire any of your staff that does. I do understand that it can happen inadvertently, and that you might cause some of this stress on purpose in an RPG for character development.. And of course, I love you WoW team despite the 'playing vs' experience of Rogue and Warlock, as you DO have the best classes of any MMO, and they look even better in Cataclysm.... But, on Bayonetta, did the developers really think the stone award was a good idea? But I digress...

Very Severe: The original tomb of horrors D&D module is the worst in existence. Good examples are the orb of annihilation that doesnt look like one and instakills you and all your gear if you touch it, and the three treasure chests where each has no loot and deadly traps and no clues that this is the case.

Severe: There's a popular wc3 map in China where you enter a bonus round, and have a 2% chance of just straight up dying rather than getting cool loot.

Situationally Moderate:Horrify + fear kiting from a competent warlock who outgears you in WoW. Guess what? You die before getting to react, while watching it in slow motion!

Mild: Stone award in Bayonetta. So... you barely get through the level for the first time, then get laughed at by the game with a lame statue of the comic relief character, and a mocking laugh. Please -- maybe a bronze award and a 500 pt bonus might be more appropriate? The player might have worked VERY hard to get through the level, espec on normal and higher difficulties.
Morgana.


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Hotarukin

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Absolutely correct. You can however minimize it, or pick method A over method B, where method A has the same gameplay, but is easier to understand
Burden of Knowledge has actually been handled really well in this. At low levels, you mostly only face around 10 champions until the week resets. During that time, you get a feel for what each champion can do. As you work your way up the levels, you encounter people who went "ooh, I like corki!" and you fight against him, but by this point, you've already been playing against the other 4 people on the opposing team, so you get a chance to go "oooh, his rockets HURT" The overall way that the game has worked out was very efficient in me learning how to play. Kudos for that.