Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Colonel J

Senior Member

11-11-2010

Zil, I think you need to make a tldr version for each thing :X. I didn't understand most of what you typed >.>


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TibbersAndAnnie

Junior Member

11-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Non-Reliability
Skills are tools. Players count on them to do a job. When a skill is highly unreliable, we have to overpower it to make it 'satisfying enough'. Let me give you an example: Let's say Kayle's targeted invulnerability ult had a 95% chance of working, and a 5% chance of doing nothing when cast. We'd have to make it a LOT stronger to make it 'good enough' because you could not rely upon it... and it would be a lot less fun. Random abilities have this problem on reliability -- they tend to be a lot less satisfying, so you have to overpower them a lot more. Small amounts of randomness can add excitement and drama, but it has a lot of downsides. There are other examples of non-reliability, but randomness is the most obvious one. Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him.
What about Gangplank's ult? Sure it has a big field, but many times have I used this on a fleeing champion, had them run through the full extent of it, and come out unscathed.


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hohums

Software Engineer

11-19-2010
123 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel J View Post
Zil, I think you need to make a tldr version for each thing :X. I didn't understand most of what you typed >.>
Pro-tip. Sometimes when Zileas is taking just nod your head and say things like "interesting". It is surprisingly effective down here at the HQ.






PS: For those who think I'm being serious, I'm sorry to disappoint you.


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Picknacker

Senior Member

11-19-2010

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Go away, Necro!

One I wish i never saw again.


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hyliandanny

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Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by hohums View Post
Pro-tip. Sometimes when Zileas is taking just nod your head and say things like "interesting". It is surprisingly effective down here at the HQ.






PS: For those who think I'm being serious, I'm sorry to disappoint you.
I like to think that, on Fridays, you guys get drunk.

-Danny
like me!


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AeonMax

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
We likely will change exhaust to be a weakening effect instead of a pure miss effect, and have it work vs all forms of DPS.
Interesting. Do you realize almost 2/3 of summoner spells have (or will have) been nerfed?

Promote (removed)
Flash (nerfed, and soon to be removed)
Ghost (nerfed)
Cleanse (nerfed)
Rally (nerfed)
Heal (nerfed)
Ignite (nerfed)

Smite (talk of getting nerfed)
Exhaust (talk of getting nerfed)

Revive
Teleport
Fortify
Clarity
Clairvoyance

I'm still waiting for coordinated usage of Teleport to catch on and get nerfed.

Anyway, the real problem seems to be when teams stack these spells in any quantity. Have you considered implementing a limit of 2-3 of any one spell per team, or diminishing effectiveness when stacked? I think you are looking at the latter for CC stacking teams already.


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Monad

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Heimers turrets not attacking anything is anti-fun. When can we expect a change?


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AeonMax

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Non-Reliability
Skills are tools. Players count on them to do a job. When a skill is highly unreliable, we have to overpower it to make it 'satisfying enough'. Let me give you an example: Let's say Kayle's targeted invulnerability ult had a 95% chance of working, and a 5% chance of doing nothing when cast. We'd have to make it a LOT stronger to make it 'good enough' because you could not rely upon it... and it would be a lot less fun. Random abilities have this problem on reliability -- they tend to be a lot less satisfying, so you have to overpower them a lot more. Small amounts of randomness can add excitement and drama, but it has a lot of downsides. There are other examples of non-reliability, but randomness is the most obvious one. Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him.
Another example is Karthus' Force Pulse. It's on its own unique CD mechanism that makes it unreliable in terms of predicting when it will next be available for use. I think this one is easily fixed though (at least partially) by putting it on a regular CD timer that is still reduced by localized usage of abilities (e.g., 30s CD reduced by 5s for each ability used in the area).


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PowerSmoker

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Mundo thinks its ................. interesting ! ..


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Stexe

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Adjudicator

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeonMax View Post
Interesting. Do you realize almost 2/3 of summoner spells have (or will have) been nerfed?

Promote (removed)
Flash (nerfed, and soon to be removed)
Ghost (nerfed)
Cleanse (nerfed)
Rally (nerfed)
Heal (nerfed)
Ignite (nerfed)

Smite (talk of getting nerfed)
Exhaust (talk of getting nerfed)

Revive
Teleport
Fortify
Clarity
Clairvoyance

I'm still waiting for coordinated usage of Teleport to catch on and get nerfed.

Anyway, the real problem seems to be when teams stack these spells in any quantity. Have you considered implementing a limit of 2-3 of any one spell per team, or diminishing effectiveness when stacked? I think you are looking at the latter for CC stacking teams already.
Since when has Ignite been nerfed? If has only been buffed due to not being removed by Cleanse (which could be seen as a nerf to Cleanse).

I do agree that Teleport is extremely underrated, and I'm sure it will "catch on" when Magma Chamber comes out, since it will be more useful to change lanes.

Back in the beta it was discussed about limiting the number of Rallys and Promotes since a team could push with it and destroy and enemy quickly. Or a stacked Fortify could provide an insane length of tower invulnerability. Smite was used in TT to instant gib Grez and the Dragon. They shot down the idea since it would be clunky to implement (who gets to use what? maybe first picked in Ranked, but this was discussed before Ranked games were there). Either way I don't see it happening any time soon.

Flash is being nerfed to not pop spells, which is needed, but I think removing it entirely would be a mistake. I mean it seemed like Ghost Walk was used more than Flash in WCG...