Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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TL Phrost

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Recruiter

10-15-2010

I just want to throw my 2 cents in to maybe help clarify some things.

Zileas is stating his ideal goals, not everything in LoL follows these ideals but it will probably eventually while trying to keep as much of the character in tact as possible (because a lot of players have very strong attachments to champions it would make a lot of people unhappy to change everything about a champion like gangplank for example)


Since most of the people on this forum know what rupture does let me try to show you from a noobie point of view how it feels.

Lets say for instance that shen threw a vorpal blade at you and you instantly died. When you went back to lane he managed to throw another one at you but you took very minimal damage. Throughout the game you seemingly randomly would not die from vorpal blade.

How does that make you feel? Pretty terrible. Now if you knew ahead of time that vorpal blade did 500% increased damage if you are facing shen then it would make vorpal blade a pretty awful skill. Now you KNOW that you need to turn your back to him whenever he approaches to vorpal blade. But how do you show tactfully how that plays into a game and is easily recognizable by particles? Not very easily or very clearly.

Now as Shen, its pretty fun when you hit them in the face and they die. But now that they know not to face you, you do more damage with an auto attack. That isn't fun for you either now.


That's an extreme but I think can showcase how rupture would work in LoL (or not as the case may be)


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King Cool

Senior Member

10-15-2010

How can you say such horrible things about antifun? We have entire heroes built for antifun! Think of all those great spammable nonskillshot abilities. Think of Miss Fortune, of Shen, of the contemptuous Vladimir! Some of their abilities provide virtually no fun whatsoever for the player using them. They only provide fun in that they provide kills and potential laning power (an indirect fun relationship not directly from actually USING the ability). Without the skillshot aspect or even a resource management aspect, or even a significant COOLDOWN aspect, the player is not mentally taxed whatsoever in using the ability beyond basic targeting, which is not much different than an autoattack. Usually these abilities also provide copious amounts of Antifun for the harassed which is compounded by their knowledge that it is not the player but only the ability that they are competing with.

Have to agree about not "!@#$" the player though. That's what the community is for. A stone award has nothing on the curses and ridicule of a properly motivated playerbase.


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PineappleThis

Senior Member

10-15-2010

The thing I have with this is burden of knowledge and anti-fun. Who decides what mechanics are anti-fun or require a heavy burden of knowledge? Ultimately it comes down to Riot designers (for example Zileas doesn't like mana burn) but I personally would love to see it implemented in a more strategic way. I just kinda feel like you're gimping new areas of advancement by 'choosing' certain concepts or mechanics to throw into the 'anti-fun' category.

And burden of knowledge makes it seem like your making this game for 5 year olds. And that you have a problem with people not knowing how a spell works on the first try, or seeing it for the first time. I think the guy who used the Tryndamere ult example was a great one. I know I had no idea what was going on when he didn't die. Then I took the time to look up his abilities in the hero database and find out. It's almost like you guys don't want players to have to do any research or spend ANY time outside the game learning about the game, which is absurd.

I just kinda feel insulted when you feel the need to dumb down all abilities so they can be explained in one sentence instead of letting us take a few extra minutes to actually learn how stuff works.


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NinjaBoyLao

Senior Member

10-15-2010

I don't know if somebody already mentioned this but Shen's passive isn't newbie friendly, requires you to actually read and will always make newbie QQ because they kept on attacking Shen.


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Picknacker

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Mild: Stone award in Bayonetta. So... you barely get through the level for the first time, then get laughed at by the game with a lame statue of the comic relief character, and a mocking laugh. Please -- maybe a bronze award and a 500 pt bonus might be more appropriate? The player might have worked VERY hard to get through the level, espec on normal and higher difficulties. Maybe I'm unable to understand because I'm a Gaijin.
Ask a 2nd generation Asian kid what his parents thought about the B on his report card. I'd tell you to ask about the C, but he wouldn't be able to answer missing his tongue.

Also, while mana burn is considered "un-fun" by many (remember Stone Rain?), there must be an interesting/innovative way to do it because it's such an interesting point in design.


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u got teemo d

Junior Member

10-15-2010

^ i too feel insulted the developers think we Lol players are ******s


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Yobber

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Non-Reliability

Jax.


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R3coil

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Zil i must say as a DM (playing on paper v3.5) you have just summed up EVERYTHING i think about (give or take a paragraph) when creating a world for these players...everything in the game is ment to be challenging yet fun, you cant just add things in the game that make the players ineffective against whatever they are going up against and you cannot make things too easy otherwise they lose interest.

In PvP type games i assume this is to a much greater level, do we make this character use this move, and if we played against this character would we still enjoy it. You must take in mind If i were a player would i enjoy this.

And I think you wrote it up perfectly. Bookmarking this for reference so that i too may become a great designer


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Lord Oliveira

Senior Member

10-15-2010

So here's my question to Zileas:

How much steam does LoL have left in it as far as new mechanics and unique abilities go if by design there is a fear to implement unique things for fear of newbs not "understanding it"?

Are you really going to pump out champ after champ of old recycled skills just to say that it is "good design"? Isn't it by very definition an ANTI-DESIGN to keep making the SAME STUFF and just regraphicing it and putting it in a different order on a champ?

At some point in order to not have this game be so rehashed that hardcore players get tired of seeing 7 versions of ezreal's ulti that you have to add the so-called "burden of knowledge skills" just to have anything remotely worthwhile into the game.


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Splitcart

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Mill View Post
that post is such a shining example of players misconstruing differences between the two factions as seekret blizzard bias I just have to quote it

another classic is "oh developer x plays a warrior of course they're going to make warriors stronger"

just dumb
A. In vanilla WoW the Fear Ward of Dwarf Priests and Paladins Cleanse gave alliance players a tremendous advantage in PvE content where debuffs would have to be dispelled off of 40 players, and your tank getting feared meant a raid wipe.
B. I know it's hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic in text, but I really didn't think anyone would have that problem when I flat out state that I was being sarcastic. I am pretty impressed by your inability to read. Note: that was sarcasm, I am not impressed at all.