Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeyon View Post
Complex isn't bad. OVERLY complex is bad. Everything in his ult serves a purpose and it synergizes well with its self. When an ability is so complex doesn't synergize well with its self or the champions other abilities, that is "Pointlessly Convoluted"
Something could be overly complex and still synergize well with itself or other abilities, so I'm not sure that's the right definition of an ability that is "Pointlessly Convoluted".

I think Swain's Torment was a good example of this. It was pointless to have the maledict effect when you could just make it a flat 20% bonus dmg while its up instead. But alot of people think the maledict effect made it more fun, so I don't agree that it was pointlessly convoluted, just convoluted. Although convoluted seems like too strong of a word to use for things like this. Maledict REALLY isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. So it's just complex, but pointlessly complex, even though making it complex made it more fun for [some] people.

Would the reactive portion of Prayer of Mending being pointlessly complex? It's basically what made it different from Chain Heal (or Healing Wave from WC3). It was cool though that it was reactive and would sit there until it was ready to continue bouncing, rather than just do all of its bounces immediately.


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jwong52

Senior Member

10-15-2010

anti fun is the best kind of fun


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeyon View Post
IA) That's not the point. The point is it gives you a false choice. Run and die or stay and die. Either way you die.

B) And I was using the given example. Give me a better example and I will give you another response.
A) It's not a false choice. You are making the assumption that you DIE either way.
I'm calling complete shenanigans on this one. Equate it to being ganked by something with a slow: Do you stay and fight or ATTEMPT to run away even though you can't outspeed them due to being slowed.
The choice would be one that you CAN make on the fly based on your current health and how much health you are losing relative to how much distance you need to cover to be "safe." And it's the same choice you need to make when it comes to standing and fighting or turning and running when slowed. The mechanics are different, that's all.


B) I don't need to. The point is that being stun locked is not fun. The exact situation doesn't matter. Maybe you were the farthest behind when your team beat a retreat. Maybe you got ganked. Maybe you got focused in a team fight. Whatever the cause, being unable to move, attack or defend yourself in any manner for an extended period of time is ANTI-FUN
  • Also. How hypocritical of you to site ME for not understanding the point of Zileas' OP, and then completely ignoring that the message I posted was about the anti-fun created by stun locks and, instead focusing on the importance of proper map awareness.
    • Strawmanning isn't cool.


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Geeves

Lead Live Designer

10-15-2010
36 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelimBradley View Post
I don't want to derail this thread, but what is your opinion on Black Shield causing abilities to fizzle entirely instead of simply redirecting their damage to the shield itself? Laser bird is a good example.
This is somewhat of a grey area. We just had a discussion on whether Bandage Toss should bring Amumu to his target while they are Banshee's Veiled and just not stun/deal dmg, or if it should block the entire thing. Banshee's avoids the stun on Rocket Grab, as well as the damage and the move block.

We look at things like this on a case-by-case basis at times, which goes against simplification but makes the game better as a result. I guess it depends on what goes out vs what goes in, and balancing it accordingly.


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-15-2010
37 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgedawg View Post
How difficult would it be, assuming the bleed is a DoT instead of a delayed nuke, that you've reached a point that you can't run anymore or you'll die.
Except you won't run unless you can run to a specific point.

Let's assume you can survive his right click for 6 seconds before dying. If rupture lasts 5 seconds, your best course of action is probably to wait those 5 seconds out and then run. Yay, you lived. However, ideally you'd like to take as little damage as possible. How are you to know "well okay I can run for maybe one second, then wait it out, because now I'll be in range of Taric's Imbue."

The real point is: What positive feature was gained here? As the receiving player you can choose between two bad things? Yay! Let's compound that by allowing players to make terrible, debilitating mistakes by not understanding the ability. There's not a lot gained here.


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gzboli

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
For what it's worth, I agree on this. I think we still have some silly mechanics still in our game that shouldn't be there.

There's no way to know you'd be slowed one way or not the other.
It may fall under burden of knowledge but mocking shout IS a fun ability to play with AND against after you learn what it is. Do not gut it por favor


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2xHero

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
Told you it was a silly example.

I wasn't necessarily talking about the Burden of Knowledge and things like that. Just when people say things are "overly convoluted" and stuff. Wouldn't Swain's Ultimate be considered that? From reading everything here it seems like Complex = Bad, bad, bad and ALWAYS bad.
It's not that complexity is bad - complexity just for the sake of complexity is what can be bad. Stuff that you have to read about to know what you are supposed to do is bad. With Swain's ult, it's pretty easy to see "those birds are attacking stuff and then go heal swain." You can know to back up so you don't take damage, or to focus-him to counter his healing. "Needlessly convoluted" would be an ability that "slows an enemy for 20 seconds or until they walk around in a square pattern." Or something more un-intuitive like "slows an enemy for 20 seconds or until they attack you within 150 units" It's just unintuitive that if you are running away from someone and they slow you, you have to run back to them to be able to escape.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

I was going to reply to all those points Zileas made, but Ive made so many points in the past , and were with no purpose.

I dont want to really sound offensive, I dont want to sound as personal attack to Zileas. But I really Dislike all his game design philosophy. Im happy seeing he is giving more rooms to other designer to influence LoL and It seems to me the more he moves apart from the game, the better it will come.

I think he made an excellent game for pure casual players, and his philosophies are great for them. But Zileas does, so far in my experience reading his explanations and views of the game during this 2 years, do not know how to please Competitive crowds. I think Great part why the competitive community of LoL is so lackluster are his design philosophies.

I dont know if is aware of how lackluster the competitive community of LoL is and how much his designs philosophy have damaged it.

But I really wish, Zileas step aside and let other designers (or bring other designers) that can make LoL a better place for competitive players.

There are like what in NA? 4-5 really serious teams? It is because LoL design philosophies like these ones, and repel serious players, most serious player that are here from the beta knows what im talking about and saw soo many players that were great to leave because of that. I saw entire teams leave lol because of it.

And some of the current teams, I know, are not entirely happy with LoL, they just feel they already invested so much time, and Riot promise its going to better.

On the honest side, it has become better. And gladly because it seems Zileas isnt having word in some spaces. Look at Malzahar, who imo is against Zileas philosophy. Im glad he made through and is going to be a fun champ to play once he becomes strong enough.

Also Zileas refused to accept the fact (And sadly Shurelia too) heals are bad for the game, months later after several players including me said how bad heals are for the game, every heal in the game has been nerfed, despite they claiming heal mechanics are fine. So At least there is an improvement.

My message is for Zileas and the rest of designers. I think is better for the game at competitive level, If other designers have more impact on the game than Zileas. Its ok to consult Zileas šif this is too anti-noobš But really Zileas doesnt have the right mind or philosophies to make this game a respectable competitive game, so I hope other designers start to gain ever more weight. I know there is evidence that Zileas have been having less influence in general design lately, and it shows, and the game has improved because of it, dont stop now!


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xHero View Post
It's not that complexity is bad - complexity just for the sake of complexity is what can be bad. Stuff that you have to read about to know what you are supposed to do is bad. With Swain's ult, it's pretty easy to see "those birds are attacking stuff and then go heal swain." You can know to back up so you don't take damage, or to focus-him to counter his healing. "Needlessly convoluted" would be an ability that "slows an enemy for 20 seconds or until they walk around in a square pattern." Or something more un-intuitive like "slows an enemy for 20 seconds or until they attack you within 150 units" It's just unintuitive that if you are running away from someone and they slow you, you have to run back to them to be able to escape.
That seems like a really extreme example.

However that bolded part kind of reminds me of Swain's Laser Bird. The gimmick is to keep them in range of the bird, but the bird itself slows the target already. Wouldn't it be better if the Bird channeled Torment?


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Lazersharkzilla

Junior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerfman View Post
On that note. MF's q= SUPER anti-fun. The problem isn't that it does too much damage. its that its completely unpredictable. and therefore very hard to find a safe place near your minions.
It's also unpredictable (to an extent) on the part of the Miss Fortune player. The double unpredictability (to some extent), makes it semi-balanced (to some extent).

I for one enjoy it.

But if we must make everything consistent; it could have the damage coefficient lowered and make it target champions first, minions second. Though I fear people would QQ moar about that..