Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Kama Toki

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
This is what i posted about Miss Fortune and Double up.


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P S Y

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Master Recruiter

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
quite likely. which is why i have a meeting about it at 4pm pst.
Suggestion for Flash: Increase the range, and make it non-activatable if you've received damage in the last X seconds.

That is all


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Team Andromeda

Senior Member

10-15-2010

What was the point of this post? We all have known ur the only reason that LoL has not lived up to its true potential since closed beta.


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zzbzq

Senior Member

10-15-2010

I think the real issue here is "pointlessly convoluted mechanics." A subset of the players love them--the more convoluted, the more creative it seems to them. The Swain debacle is an example of this. A portion of the players were upset that the ability did damage one way instead of dealing it a more complicated way. To me it's all the same and I prefer simplicity and elegance.

You guys should cater to that crowd more often, irrational though they may be. DotA was full of pointlessly convoluted mechanics. DotA strove to create the illusion of creativity by adding the most complicated things imaginable. It's cynical, but I think there is a big portion of the player base that would be really, really impressed by a 2 paragraph long tooltip for an ability that merely does anywhere from 150-300 damage depending on some bizarre set of conditions.


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binch

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
quite likely. which is why i have a meeting about it at 4pm pst.
Before your meeting, just consider this.

Flash
- Teleports your Champion to a nearby enemy unit.

Restricted to offensive usage. Fixed.


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Lord GiantR

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10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by zzbzq View Post
I think the real issue here is "pointlessly convoluted mechanics." A subset of the players love them--the more convoluted, the more creative it seems to them. The Swain debacle is an example of this. A portion of the players were upset that the ability did damage one way instead of dealing it a more complicated way. To me it's all the same and I prefer simplicity and elegance.

You guys should cater to that crowd more often, irrational though they may be. DotA was full of pointlessly convoluted mechanics. DotA strove to create the illusion of creativity by adding the most complicated things imaginable. It's cynical, but I think there is a big portion of the player base that would be really, really impressed by a 2 paragraph long tooltip for an ability that merely does anywhere from 150-300 damage depending on some bizarre set of conditions.
LVL? death


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-15-2010
28 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by zzbzq View Post
I think the real issue here is "pointlessly convoluted mechanics." A subset of the players love them--the more convoluted, the more creative it seems to them. The Swain debacle is an example of this. A portion of the players were upset that the ability did damage one way instead of dealing it a more complicated way. To me it's all the same and I prefer simplicity and elegance.

You guys should cater to that crowd more often, irrational though they may be. DotA was full of pointlessly convoluted mechanics. DotA strove to create the illusion of creativity by adding the most complicated things imaginable. It's cynical, but I think there is a big portion of the player base that would be really, really impressed by a 2 paragraph long tooltip for an ability that merely does anywhere from 150-300 damage depending on some bizarre set of conditions.
We think the game's appeal will be much broader if we take our current approach. It's a lot of why WoW is more popular than EQ2 for example.


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TheOddOne

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10-15-2010

While I agree with most of them, I disagree with your examples or interpretation of some:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious.

In a sense, ALL abilities have some burden of knowledge, but some have _a lot more_ -- the ones that force the opponent to know about a specific interaction to 'enjoy' the gameplay have it worst.
Rupture should be fairly obvious if the animation is obvious after dying to the first time, I think the only reason there was any confusion about it (if any) in dota was the fact that the animation was hardly noticable and it dealt initial damage confusing people to when it was doing damage. In this genre, there is absolutely nothing you can do about this for the first time, when I laned against a Miss Fortune for the first time without knowing what her skills were, she first blooded me around 30 seconds into the lane because I had no idea how broken she was that early and her kite damage was beyond even Ezreal's if you ever try to extend or push. There is simply no possible way to know anything about her without actually looking at her champion stats or skillset.

And honestly, Rupture is just as confusing as say Vlad's Ult. Unless you actually read the ult, you'd have no idea that damage was amplified on you, and that it isn't the ult itself doing damage until the last tick but you'd have no idea about the damage amplifcation unless you actually read the skill or played the champion. Similarily with Vlad's pool, you'd have no idea non target aoes could affect him unless you read or tried it yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Conflicted Purpose
This one is not a super strong anti-pattern, but sometimes it's there. A good example of this would be a 500 damage nuke that slows enemy attack speed by 50% for 10 seconds (as opposed to say, 20%), on a 20 second cooldown. At 50%, this is a strong combat initiation disable... but at 500 damage it's a great finisher on someone who is running... but you also want to use it early to get the disable -- even though you won't have it avail by the end of combat usually to finish. This makes players queasy about using the ability much like in the optimization case, but it's a slightly different problem. If the ability exists for too many different purposes on an explicit basis, it becomes confusing. this is different from something like blink which can be used for many purposes, but has a clear basic purpose -- in that place, players tend to just feel creative instead.
I disagree about this one, I think anything that gives more choice or freedom to make plays is better. Take Annie, this pattern is constantly on her as when a teamfight or a opportunity to do kiting damage occurs, the question asked constantly is :'should Annie use up her stun hoping it'll be up to use with tibbers before the fight begins or should she not use her stun at all because a fight may occur soon'.


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BACKSTABUUU

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10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by binch View Post
Before your meeting, just consider this.

Flash
- Teleports your Champion to a nearby enemy unit.

Restricted to offensive usage. Fixed.
I'd prefer -Teleports your champion to nearby targeted unit, if you target a hostile unit, it draws aggro.

That would be nice and balanced imo.


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Malak al Maut

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
But you released Sona. I'm confused.
Been saying this for a couple weeks now *how did sona get implemented.* Can't wait for them to Jax her.