Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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NinetyNineTails

Member

08-30-2011

I swear, half of this thread at this point is people whining that Wukong and Skarner are too similar and constitute an abandonment on Riot's part to interesting new champions. Because Orianna, Yorick, and Lee Sin don't exist.


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IS1d6d3ffc5d25bf1bdf6f0

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorylke View Post
as far as rumble copying goes:
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroview.php?hid=124

you cannot deny that two share a staggering amount of similarities. only real differences are tar vs firebreath and melee versus ranged.
Rocket/Tar and Flamethrower/taser don't have that much in common, other than both the latter applying a snare. Their shields function differently. Of course, they both have basically the same ult and the same tiny thing in giant warmachine motif ( though I always assumed in both cases they were taking that off the warcraft 3 shredder or something ), which is a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinetyNineTails View Post
I swear, half of this thread at this point is people whining that Wukong and Skarner are too similar and constitute an abandonment on Riot's part to interesting new champions. Because Orianna, Yorick, and Lee Sin don't exist.
A few scattered champions standing in spite of a design philosophy doesn't meant that said design philosophies aren't inherently flawed.


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Falleth

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorylke View Post
I admit S2 has copied a bunch of money-related things from Riot, they, however, don't have their CEO claiming that other people are stealing **** and they aren't and stuff that they do copy generally doesn't involve any gameplay.

Wukong being an example that's brought up a lot: a. concept art for monkey king is timestamped about a year and some change ago by HoN on their website, so as far as art goes, they got it before riot. b. the heroes have nearly nothing in common, as far as mechanics go. c. The original concept of monkey king comes from a book that gained a significant amount of popularity in the west, and, as such, belongs to original author who is long dead.

wukong art: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=191006

as far as rumble copying goes:
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroview.php?hid=124

you cannot deny that two share a staggering amount of similarities. only real differences are tar vs firebreath and melee versus ranged.
And guess what, Monkey King was out there for hundreds of years. Who ****ing cares anymore? He was in dozens of games/series/movies/books. It was just funny, that S2 releases with him week after Riot does.

As for Chipper - then he apparently has Corki's rockets, Trundle's Pillar, Black Shield and any generic line damaging skill. Woah, so original.

Not to mention, surely HoN created animals on the robots, amiright?


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Crow Squid

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
The problem we run into is because the effects on support chars tend not to be that satisfying unless they are OP, we end up in a rough spot -- it's hard to make them feel good with those style of effects unless it's OP.

That's why we've migrated supports to be a little closer to mages and be able to kill people better (at the expense of some support capability). It's also why we like single target shields and hastes more than things like AE armor/mr auras and heals.

See and as a support player I do not want to be closer to a mage. If I wanted to play a AP Carry I would. Besides it's not like the support role can even be a soft carry which I am guessing is the reason you see them so rarely in your statistics. I wouldn't swear to it but are there any players who play primarily support in the top fifty of Ranked Solo Queue? A support mindset doesn't need their names up in lights, they are what Riot says this game is about, team work

Also you guys are kinda locked into only thinking about support one way, Support tends to be passive because that is how you made them, look at all the cool support abilities you give to other characters (Nunu's Blood Boil, Gangplank's Raise Morale (**** that would be great on Taric) Sion's Canabalism, Karthus's Wall of Pain and a good deal of Jarvan's Kit.

It seems to me you guys might want to do a support mission statement like you did with tanks when you released Leona. Because right now the community has decided a Zero CS, with a strong CC and good damage mitigation, is true support. Heck they decided Alistar was support and you guys haven't even done that yet.


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tisin

Senior Member

08-31-2011

besides not make this comment before i hope that still in time to see some feedback for a red/zileas:

this is the only thing that make me rage (in my mind) when I see from you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits, so it might actually create fun on both sides, instead of fun on one and weak anti-fun on another. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
I completly and tottaly desagree about the mana burn be a "anti-fun is exceeded by the fun" and to resume a bit my tl;dr simple becasue fear has the same purpose and level of anti-fun(how not feel TERRIBLE on lost the control of the unit?; you even look as made some noob/troll move) and already has 2 or 3 caracters with this ability and still has it in your design cosideration.

manaburn has always been a interesting feature on WC3 and play as demonhunter or other manaburn heroes of dota and I never see this "anti-fun" detail considering that I has in both sides of coin.

manaburn in my opnion is a good tool to counter heavy feeded mages by removing her main tool in the battle. still I never see a mana burn ability that can frying 1000 of mana and made de spellcaster useless the entire battle event and I am not asking for that in LoL:

what I want is has a manaburn ability that is weak on low level and be scale with mid and lategame. this is alow to players to not be worried of has your many destroyed on early levels but be carefull on late game, especially melee mana carrys or fighters or even so tanks(alistar , amumu or rammus and singed be neutralized with that)

still why you are saying that about manaburn if its has perfect counters on LoL? energy champiions, rage and health champions maybe a perfect counter for this hability...

I dont remember in what topic i see that but I remember a red saying that manaburn feature will not be never implemented on lol with the same anti-fun detail(maybe preak, i dont remeber well)...

this is just wrong and even poor comming from a game design. exclude a possibilty to the gameply only make de moves and future skill more repetitive and boring...

if this is really true, so why fear is encouraged and used as habilibty if has the same anti-fun level??


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Vuy

Junior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falleth View Post
And guess what, Monkey King was out there for hundreds of years. Who ****ing cares anymore? He was in dozens of games/series/movies/books. It was just funny, that S2 releases with him week after Riot does.

As for Chipper - then he apparently has Corki's rockets, Trundle's Pillar, Black Shield and any generic line damaging skill. Woah, so original.

Not to mention, surely HoN created animals on the robots, amiright?
S2 did create the chiprel race.


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Komori Kiri

Senior Member

08-31-2011

On "burden of knowledge" topic, it's just a question of how you represent it.

If you make a circle of fantomatic swords around the champ pointed against him, I think he'll understand clearly what's the risk.

Mechanics that behave in a very complex manier are not a problem as long as a) they are well explained/represented or as long as b) the victim doesn't understand why he should be frustrated in the first place.

You often get killed by very complex mechanics, but you just think they were less complex and it doesn't matter. For example, as long as you can think that "burden of knowledge" is just a direct nuke (i.e. if it wouldn't be excessively overpowered as a nuke), then you don't care. You just think "heck this champ is overpowered". It happens pretty much all the time in LoL, with all sort of champs. :-) That does not necessarily create extreme frustration.

You have to balance a champ for every degree of knowledge the opponents has on it (or the game in general). Some champions are difficult to counter because they do tremendous amounts of damage if you don't have some knowledge (Tryn, Leblanc, Eve...), while others are easy to understand at first sight.

Anyway, knowledge of the gameplay is often what rules a game (with skill of course). I don't know if it's a good thing or not - it depends mainly on what the designers wants for the game. (the actual vision of "fun" often implies to reduce knowledge requirements) It's just a design choice to decide if knowledge should be important or not - at which level in the progression curves, etc. Extremes are dangerous, but that's all.

TL;DR: I think the whole "burden of knowledge" part could be sum up by : "the game shouldn't be boring without knowledge - it should just be more difficult".


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Confusion567

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Hah, I go to the gym every morning to help manage my cardiovascular risk.
You guys are my heroes. I used to regular the Blizzard forums, and the blue posters would never answer dumb/rage/troll questions like you guys do. It shows that you really ARE reading every single post like you always say, and that you care about correcting ignorance and anger in your players.

<3 Riot.


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Madman Reborn

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by tisin View Post
besides not make this comment before i hope that still in time to see some feedback for a red/zileas:

this is the only thing that make me rage (in my mind) when I see from you



I completly and tottaly desagree about the mana burn be a "anti-fun is exceeded by the fun" and to resume a bit my tl;dr simple becasue fear has the same purpose and level of anti-fun(how not feel TERRIBLE on lost the control of the unit?; you even look as made some noob/troll move) and already has 2 or 3 caracters with this ability and still has it in your design cosideration.

manaburn has always been a interesting feature on WC3 and play as demonhunter or other manaburn heroes of dota and I never see this "anti-fun" detail considering that I has in both sides of coin.

manaburn in my opnion is a good tool to counter heavy feeded mages by removing her main tool in the battle. still I never see a mana burn ability that can frying 1000 of mana and made de spellcaster useless the entire battle event and I am not asking for that in LoL:


what I want is has a manaburn ability that is weak on low level and be scale with mid and lategame. this is alow to players to not be worried of has your many destroyed on early levels but be carefull on late game, especially melee mana carrys or fighters or even so tanks(alistar , amumu or rammus and singed be neutralized with that)

still why you are saying that about manaburn if its has perfect counters on LoL? energy champiions, rage and health champions maybe a perfect counter for this hability...

I dont remember in what topic i see that but I remember a red saying that manaburn feature will not be never implemented on lol with the same anti-fun detail(maybe preak, i dont remeber well)...

this is just wrong and even poor comming from a game design. exclude a possibilty to the gameply only make de moves and future skill more repetitive and boring...

if this is really true, so why fear is encouraged and used as habilibty if has the same anti-fun level??
First off, fear is a cc, manaburn isn't. And allthough it isn't impossible to compare them in a manner that makes sense, you fail at it. Fear isn't very fun, especially when it results in your death. But it does fit perfectly in the kit of the few champs that have it, making them very fun to play. Also the fact that no-one controls where you run of to causes situations where the fear was completely ineffective.

The manaburn on the other hand is completely unbalanceable in this game. If it acts as a counter to a mage it will burn down tanks too quickly. If it deals too little, it's useless.

It also shuts down characters for a longer period of time. Fear only lasts a few seconds, If you lose all(or a big part) of your mana, it takes a while to get it back, especially in the early game. This leads to a lot of frustration, the oppenent in the lane is constantly disturbed by the fact that his mana is gone for such a stupid reason. At the same time, the one who uses the mana burn only has a few moments of fun by using it.

To summurize: it's hard to balance, it's plain and simple useless against a lot of champs. it causes a lot more frustration then a fear(you need to think about outside of battle which clearly you don't). If it hardly burns low lvl's you are frustrated because it is useless or so it would feel.


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tisin

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madman Reborn View Post
First off, fear is a cc, manaburn isn't. And allthough it isn't impossible to compare them in a manner that makes sense, you fail at it. Fear isn't very fun, especially when it results in your death. But it does fit perfectly in the kit of the few champs that have it, making them very fun to play. Also the fact that no-one controls where you run of to causes situations where the fear was completely ineffective.

The manaburn on the other hand is completely unbalanceable in this game. If it acts as a counter to a mage it will burn down tanks too quickly. If it deals too little, it's useless.
first I am not compare direclty fear and manaburn but in only terms of anti-fun aspect.

I dont see how mana burn cant be umbalenced in a MOBA game and this game already has some class of champions that can naturally avoid this problem and sure any future spell can be balanced to offer a fair early game(sure you will not see a 600 burn on lvl 1) but control on mid late game.

so you fail on this part.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madman Reborn View Post
It also shuts down characters for a longer period of time. Fear only lasts a few seconds, If you lose all(or a big part) of your mana, it takes a while to get it back, especially in the early game. This leads to a lot of frustration, the oppenent in the lane is constantly disturbed by the fact that his mana is gone for such a stupid reason. At the same time, the one who uses the mana burn only has a few moments of fun by using it.

I dont agreed and see any problem with that becasue be careful on how to lane and avoid manaburn affects is some kind part of the most Dota like game and even that can ve changed of how this manaburn is casted/affects.

also be enable too hurt the enemy mana pool can be a sucessfull way to avoid have ap/mage/nuke champions and is some kind of counter for this strategy.

the same "stupid reason" that you say is aplly on the fear effects too(not only for mana starve) no matter the duration becasue both uncontrol and no mana are bad sitatuions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madman Reborn View Post
To summurize: it's hard to balance, it's plain and simple useless against a lot of champs. it causes a lot more frustration then a fear(you need to think about outside of battle which clearly you don't). If it hardly burns low lvl's you are frustrated because it is useless or so it would feel.
I as said, I play on both sides of coin and I always used anti-mage hero or demonhunter on WC3 and others moba and I know the effects on players.

still manaburn can be balanced to be a weapon against casters without disable to then works on their games....

its you that must need to see this option that other moba has and works quite well...

I dont see how this feature can be so bad on LoL unless the design ?re too lazy or bad to not work with that and I sure they arent...