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Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Kenfrot

Senior Member

08-30-2011

wow, this is a legit post to give the players a chance to see what ACTUALLY goes into creating skills and heros. awesome post!


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ChileanDead

Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Lord Nat:
Ya before the change it was normal to get 1-2 people trapped in there for a few mins while they tried to bring a TP scroll to them self to get out.


That hole was trolltastic, I think I once tossed someone down there? Oh the rage!


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lorylke

Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Zileas:
How is that even related to Orianna? Because they both have a pet? Well, I think these are both ripped off from nethack, which was made 20 years ago, because you can have a pet in that game too.


Thanks for dodging my post ENTIRELY this time.

And if you check the abilities and the way the interaction happens, it's not a carbon copy, but the concept is fairly unique and happens to be extremely similar.

What's next, you gonna tell me Rumble was developed over 6 months from scratch in some guy's basement without any proof?

I'm surprised about your lack of professionalism, but I suppose I should've come to expect that from Riot employees :/. After all, Tryndamere(the person) is a lying hypocritical idiot and you lie on every single ad of yours with statements like "true successor of DotA" or "the next gen DotA" game.

But either way, thread is about your design philosophy, not about your morally questionable public representation, so let's please stick to that.


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Tenshi Jinn

Senior Member

08-30-2011

What can you say about the next few champions? Anything we should expect?
Any plans for our current champions? Like skill reworks? Rammus' Q scaling with movement speed, Warwick running on all fours when he smells blood?

I think you guys did a great job with Skarner, however his E doesn't quite feel right to use when you're on top of someone. I was expecting Wukong's abilities to interact with each other to allow for more mischievous play though =P

Also, even though this community doesn't seem to like copies, is it possible to get more champion abilities that scale with stats like armor and magic resist like Rammus and Galio?

EDIT: Sorry x-x Didn't realized my thread was that off topic x-x


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the Pubstarr

Recruiter

08-30-2011

Quote:
Zileas:


Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious.

In a sense, ALL abilities have some burden of knowledge, but some have _a lot more_ -- the ones that force the opponent to know about a specific interaction to 'enjoy' the gameplay have it worst.

Good particle work and sound -- good 'salesmanship' -- will reduce burden of knowledge (but not eliminate it). We still would not do Rupture as is in LoL ever, but I would say that the HON version of Rupture, with it's really distinct sound effect when you move, greatly reduces the burden of knowledge on it.

In summary, all mechanics have some burden of knowledge, and as game designers, we seek to design skills in a way that gives us a lot of gameplay, for not too much burden of knowledge. If we get a lot more gameplay from something, we are willing to take on more burden of knowledge -- but for a given mechanic, we want to have as little burden of knowledge as possible.




Keep things dumbed down for newer players. Sounds pretty lame for competitives.


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zAlbert

Recruiter

08-30-2011

I find Gap-closers with CC attached to be anti-fun.,


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Gløry

Senior Member

08-30-2011

Yeah, let's talk skarner...

He violates Anti-Combo pretty hard, you are apparently supposed to play him based around auto attacks, but you can't auto attack while using your CC ultimate... He has three decent AP ratios, too, but ****it, he's based around auto attacks.


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MasterfulWizard

Senior Member

08-30-2011

Wana know what a burden of knowledge is Zileas?

Knowing the exact cast rate on Leona's ultimate. "casts after a short delay"

WTF

what about jungle respawn times? burden of knowledge


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Hedgepig

Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
lorylke:
Thanks for dodging my post ENTIRELY this time.

And if you check the abilities and the way the interaction happens, it's not a carbon copy, but the concept is fairly unique and happens to be extremely similar.

What's next, you gonna tell me Rumble was developed over 6 months from scratch in some guy's basement without any proof?

I'm surprised about your lack of professionalism, but I suppose I should've come to expect that from Riot employees :/. After all, Tryndamere(the person) is a lying hypocritical idiot and you lie on every single ad of yours with statements like "true successor of DotA" or "the next gen DotA" game.

But either way, thread is about your design philosophy, not about your morally questionable public representation, so let's please stick to that.


If you are so mad, man, why post here? I feel like you would be happier doing something else.

That woodsman guy does not look like Orianna to me. The have more different than they do the same. Pet class: Maybe? Pet casts a spell: Check. Both those concepts are not unique to LoL or HoN, nor the Genre, nor computer games. I think the origins of a game system with pets casting spells probably could be traced back to D&D or some wargame, and the origin of the idea far down through oral histories.
The woodsmans pet is an actual creature with HP. It is an elaborate mechanic to mark a target with a slowing DoT. Flavorful, yes, but not exactly groundbreaking. Orianna's ball is just an elaborate mechanic to disconnect the center of a character from where the character's targetable area is. Its not even really a pet.

Heres a fact of human innovation: Everything is based off of something. We cant comprehend things that our outside of our experiences, so we base everything off our experiences. Everything is borrowed.
When particularly obscure inspiration strikes, or a particularly large leap is created, we label that Invention. Mostly things are innovation.


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Tenshi Jinn

Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Gl?ry:
Yeah, let's talk skarner...

He violates Anti-Combo pretty hard, you are apparently supposed to play him based around auto attacks, but you can't auto attack while using your CC ultimate... He has three decent AP ratios, too, but ****it, he's based around auto attacks.


What's so Anti-Combo about it? o-O