Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Starshard

Senior Member

12-31-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
disagree, burden of knowledge applies directly to how much you need to understand at a base level, at a high level, there were obviously be tons of knowledge in any competitive game
You miss-understand. The burden of knowledge normally becomes increasingly important (a "burden") as the competitive level increases. A participant needs understanding and execution to advance to the next level; not one or the other but both. Zil's posts details an argument that understanding be removed or diminished as _requirement_ for competitive play and advancement in LoL. Removing understanding vis-a-vis the "burden of knowledge" leaves only execution, i.e. twitch based mechanics.

Edit: The "burden of knowledge" is also more commonly referred to as "the learning curve." Creating a shallow learning curve results easy access at beginner levels and but with higher competitions that are not dependent on knowledge and lack depth. A steep learning curve results in beginners struggling to understand what is happening in the game and advanced competitions were detailed understanding of all elements is vital to success. Good game design neither has a curve that is too steep nor too shallow, but where a player knowledge is suitably and continually challenged in order to advance. Naturally, not everyone can become a pro, but Zil needs to answer, "What defines a pro LoL player?" just as much as "What nurtures a beginner player?"


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Veenom

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-31-2010

Please Zileas, will you tell us if you will be reducing the burden of knowledge limitation? Gently lowering it over a span of time would be truly helpful. While I agree burden of knowledge can be frustrating, (like when I first played DOTA, boy do I remember that) I still believe it leads to amazing games. Humans are more adaptive than you might think.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Razeluxe

Senior Member

12-31-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post

Unclear Optimization
This is a more subtle one. when players KNOW they've used a spell optimally, they feel really good. An example is disintegrate on Annie. When you kill a target and get the mana back, you know that you used it optimally, and this makes the game more fun. On the other hand, some mechanics are so convoluted, or have so many contrary effects, that it is not possible to 'off the cuff' analyze if you played optimally, so you tend not to be satisfied. A good example of this is Proudmoore's ult in DOTA where he drops a ship. The ship hits the target a bit in the future, dealing a bunch of damage and some stun to enemies. Allies on the other hand get damage resistance and bonus move speed, but damage mitigated comes up later. Very complicated! And almost impossible to know if you have used it optimally -- do you really want your squishies getting into the AOE? Maybe! Maybe not... It's really hard to know that you've used this skill optimally and feel that you made a 'clutch' play, because it's so hard to tell, and there are so many considerations you have to make. On the other hand, with Ashe's skill shot, if you hit the guy who was weak and running, you know you did it right... You also know you did it right if you slowed their entire team... Ditto on Ezreal's skill shot.
I feel that this is the problem with Trundle right now.

Agony

(Active): Trundle immediately steals his targetís health and a percentage of their armor and magic resistance. Over the next 6 seconds the amount of health, armor, and magic resistance stolen is doubled.
  • Cost: 75 Mana
Cooldown: 80 / 70 / 60 seconds Health Stolen (Magic Damage): 100 / 175 / 250 (+0.6 per Ability Power)
Armor & Magic Resist: 15 / 20 / 25 %


Here's the problem. The damage is a flat amount, yet the the Armor/MR is a percentage.


A) Do I use it on a carry to cripple them with the damage?
B) Do I use it on a tank to empower myself through the MR/Armor?


My suggestion would be to make it either both flat amounts to anti-carry, or both % to anti-tank and empower yourself. I think option B works out better, because we already have plenty of anti-carries and no real anti-tanks, and because as a Melee DPS Trundle could use the stats.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GoSKINS

Senior Member

12-31-2010

This list feels like it should be utilized for a child's game. These silly restrictions and rules which are in-game in various ways anyway are a terrible burden to the primary objective which should be making the game more creative and complex. Not making the game linear and boring.

edit: and your not even a zileas...your an annie


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Red VII

Senior Member

12-31-2010

Burden of Knowledge aka making LoL casual.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MV101

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

12-31-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSKINS View Post
This list feels like it should be utilized for a child's game. These silly restrictions and rules which are in-game in various ways anyway are a terrible burden to the primary objective which should be making the game more creative and complex. Not making the game linear and boring.
This game is catered for casuals who still click skill icons to use them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

killd0zer

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSKINS View Post
This list feels like it should be utilized for a child's game. These silly restrictions and rules which are in-game in various ways anyway are a terrible burden to the primary objective which should be making the game more creative and complex. Not making the game linear and boring.

edit: and your not even a zileas...your an annie
What does adding complexity for the sake of adding complexity achieve? It isn't necessary game play. We can make a spell that deals minor damage, if they move 500 distance from the point at which they were damage, they are snared, and take more damage, OR they can be damage equal to 20% of their max health and then they will be stunned, however both effects can not occur. If either effect is triggered, they will be knocked back 500 units, after the stun or snare ends.

All in all, its a nuke with a snare or stun, it doesn't add much of anything exciting, you used it on them then damage them, or they try to run, then get damaged.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-03-2011
223 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSKINS View Post
This list feels like it should be utilized for a child's game. These silly restrictions and rules which are in-game in various ways anyway are a terrible burden to the primary objective which should be making the game more creative and complex. Not making the game linear and boring.

edit: and your not even a zileas...your an annie
If games were more successful the more 'creative and complex' they were, this game would've been the most successful game of all time:
http://moo3.quicksilver.com/


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arrlaari

Senior Member

01-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
If games were more successful the more 'creative and complex' they were, this game would've been the most successful game of all time:
http://moo3.quicksilver.com/
This is the sickest burn

all of you who didn't waste money on that game, you don't even know

it is a plague of burn, guys.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Suryan

Member

01-04-2011

Zileas: Lots of people are pointing out places in LoL where the anti-patterns are used, and lots of people are pointing out things in the game which are "anti-fun" to them.

Despite all the flack and hate you've received on this thread, I wanted to say that I'm glad you made the post. Stuff like this really interests me.