Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Amadi

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Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
If you have no idea WTF is going on, it's very difficult to be strategically engaged.
I could argue that people in 1550 ELO, soloqueue, do not know WTF is going on. I constantly get players that spam AoE on a lane while being Zoned, people who push way too far on lanes or people who facecheck brushes when Garen is on the enemy team. If your goal is to make people understand WTF is going on, I think that you have failed when the top 1%, by your words, do not fulfill that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
DOTA's counter model is to a much larger extent than LoL based around a strong carry either demolishing your team or not.
LoL's counter system is a carry with three Doran's Blades and IE demolishing your team or not, instead. At least in DotA assassins could suicide those carries to slow them down, but in LoL, that just speeds them up due to the great gold benefit to everyone from dying. Seriously, no death penalty makes champions seem like gold/XP pinyatas - Smashing two together makes everyone happy.

.. Except it just makes carries happier, meaning that you don't want to fight a carry unless you are absolutely sure you can kill him/her without dying yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Sheepstick is ALWAYS a good item to a significant extent, which is a problem ;p
So are Mercury Treads and Banshee's Veil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I really dislike terrorblade's ult beacuse:
1) It can screw your teammates, which isn't cool
4) The anti-magic interactions are pretty odd.
Personally, I feel that screwing over teammates is not a very good reason to not implement an ability. You see, if a player wants to screw up his team, he can make 3 Zeals and suicide to mid tower repeatedly, and yell in all-chat about his allies' locations. One does not need a special ability to screw teammates. Especially in the case of Terrorblade's Ultimate, I have seen an extreme number of lifesaving ultimates used to save allies, but only a handful of griefers.

4) Is just because of wonky coding in WC3 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Being killed is fine. Being killed in a situation where you cannot make a response is really frustrating.
As a poster above me has stated, the pre-emptive means are an important part of LoL/DotA gameplay. If a Terrorblade got to sneak on you with 20% health, you more or less deserved to die.

For a comparision, consider poker. Poker is a game of only pre-emptive decisions - You never know your opponent's hand. You just make an educated quess - you make the best decison based on the knowledge you have. You try to downplay your losses by bluffing opponents from raising, or just bluffing them out. You try to maximize your wins by making opponents think they have the lead. Once the hands are on the table, and if you bid a high sum on that, you deserved to lose all that money. They outplayed you, and you cannot make a response.

Is poker, therefore, an inherently frustrating game? Millions of player seem to not think so.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
4) The anti-magic interactions are pretty odd.
4) Is just because of wonky coding in WC3 engine.
A minor tangent on the technicals: there was nothing odd about the anti-magic / etc of TB's ult. It was a scripted effect and simply swapped your %hp with your target's (therefore there was no "amount" that was swapped that could be affected by magic resist). The Dagon at the end was affected by magic resist per normal rules.

Err, if you're referring to magic immunity things, as an ult it would always swap Terrorblade's HP and would always execute, but if I remember correctly, a magic immune target would not have their HP affected. But you don't use the combo on a magic immune target ~_~. Keke.


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Arixa

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Senior Member

12-09-2010

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
You have to get hit by MULTIPLES of those to kill you. Several flash frost/frostbites... Many tics of glacial storm... Or two or three parrrleys with cannon barrage. That's the difference. Terrorblade combo can kill you immediately in under a second, so fast that you may not even understand what happened. No LoL champion can do that in reasonable situations (the exception would be super late game olaf or tryndamere that is very farmed going against an 0-10 caster or something).
Poppy with DFG can. You die in about a second with virtually no counter play or understanding of how she murdered you. She doesn't even need significant farm.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

12-09-2010

Oh good point.

Brb buying Poppy.


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Morinav

Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friei View Post
Poppy with DFG can. You die in about a second with virtually no counter play or understand of how she murdered you. She doesn't even need significant farm.
True, but it takes a poppy of exceptional skill to burst the **** out of someone and live afterward. I've only seen a handful of amazing poppy players, and they've been terrifying. She's like Tryndamere in that regard, or Kassadin.


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Expertise

Senior Member

12-09-2010

I believe that Taric's stun falls underneath the "Non-Reliability" and slightly under the "Burden of Knowledge" category.

1.) Taric's stun isn't that reliable. IF the person you are stunning knows about its mechanics (hence Burden of Knowledge), then that player will not run farther away because he/she knows that it will stun him longer.

2.) Burden of Knowledge - There's really no sign to how much Taric's stun stuns you for. You have absolutely no indicator as to when the stun is 2 seconds, 1 second, etc. The player also needs to know that by running farther away the stun will stun you longer. This is similar to Rupture in which you really have to know what the skill's mechanic is.


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Nenesse

Senior Member

12-09-2010

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Non-Reliability
... Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him.
>release a champion that stuns only if enemies are facing her

Hmm?


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Seiuchi

Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Expertise View Post
I believe that Taric's stun falls underneath the "Non-Reliability" and slightly under the "Burden of Knowledge" category.

1.) Taric's stun isn't that reliable. IF the person you are stunning knows about its mechanics (hence Burden of Knowledge), then that player will not run farther away because he/she knows that it will stun him longer.

2.) Burden of Knowledge - There's really no sign to how much Taric's stun stuns you for. You have absolutely no indicator as to when the stun is 2 seconds, 1 second, etc. The player also needs to know that by running farther away the stun will stun you longer. This is similar to Rupture in which you really have to know what the skill's mechanic is.
Well, it really depends on the distance-stun duration ratio. Depending on the exact numbers, maybe running does get you away faster, maybe it doesn't. The player doesn't have to know that running farther will stun them longer, they just need to be able to guess whether running farther will get them away faster or not.


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Expertise

Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiuchi View Post
Well, it really depends on the distance-stun duration ratio. Depending on the exact numbers, maybe running does get you away faster, maybe it doesn't. The player doesn't have to know that running farther will stun them longer, they just need to be able to guess whether running farther will get them away faster or not.
I think you mean that they do have to know that running away would stun them longer, otherwise they wouldn't know that running farther will get them away faster or not.

And that still depends on the player receiving the stun to know what the skill does. Hence Burden of Knowledge...

But I disagree that just because a player needs to know what skill does what doesn't mean that it's anti-fun. Every RPG has skills, and in PvP they have to know what skill does what in order to be able to counter that skill.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-09-2010
200 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiuchi View Post
Well, it really depends on the distance-stun duration ratio. Depending on the exact numbers, maybe running does get you away faster, maybe it doesn't. The player doesn't have to know that running farther will stun them longer, they just need to be able to guess whether running farther will get them away faster or not.
At the present values, running almost always is the play. If it wasn't the case, we'd have a problem. I remember very specifically measuring this during Taric's development.

- Zileas