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Please explain to me how Riven nerfs are fair.

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X74

Senior Member

12-25-2012

Quote:
1LL0G1CAL:
You build Infinity Edge on Riven... that's just wrong. BT is not only cheaper, but also a more reliable source of damage. And on top of that, it gives you sustain- lifesteal.



You're under the implication that I don't get both IE and BT.

IE isn't bad on Riven. Her damage is entirely dependent on her abilities, so when you're on cooldown, her damage drops hard and forces you to back off and wait for your CDs to go down, which I hate doing, and the passive she has only gets you so far; so for tankier enemies capable of outputting a ton of damage lategame, you need more damage equal to ability usage: Critical damage. I also get BT before I get IE.

My build goes something like this: Keep in mind I already have enough armor runes to survive hard AD champions early-game, and the AD/armor pen runes to outdamage them by the time I get to level 4; save Olaf, he has true damage. Not quite impossible to kill though, I'm still squishy.

If my matchup is heavy AD, get Ninja Tabi, if they have any AP at all, like Malphite for example, get Merc Treads.

-Then get Phage for some extra survivability + damage.
-Then Last Whisper for extra damage and armor pen.
-Then get two BF swords, one for each of your BF items. I get two BF swords instead of just upgrading to BT because it allows you to add up more permanent damage you need while focusing on future items for your build. This is purely an economic choice and occasionally I don't do it (if I'm low on gold or don't think I'll gain a lot soon I just upgrade to BT straight away).
-Turn one BF sword into BT first, then turn the other one into IE.
-Depending on the situation, get Atma's for more armor and Hexdrinker>Maw of Malmortius for more MR, and added damage for both. Oh, and with Atma's, extra crit to use between cooldowns.
-Upgrade Phage to Frozen Mallet last. If you got Atma's this will bring its bonus damage up to ~44.

I think you're underestimating just how useful IE can be in between cooldowns. Considering it allows me to smash most Rivens to pieces who follow builds used by "pros" such as yours probably, or builds on Mobafire or Solomid, I think my way works just fine. I don't like listening to people who put themselves on a pedestal, I'd rather listen to my gut and a bit of common sense. If it works for me, it's not wrong. No online build on mobafire or solomid is better than one that suits a player specifically, and mine certainly does.

Quote:
1LL0G1CAL:
You're supposed to build according to the enemy team. Get a hexdrinker. Get an Atmas, Randuin's or Frozen Mallet, well you can actually get all three now that Randuin's gives some decent health, and build to counter your enemy.


Building health prevents you from being bursted down. Its why supports in all the major championships used to build heart of gold instead of philosophers stone first. Supports are squishy and bursted down easily.


Read above. I do build on the enemy team for two items in particular, and it allows me to survive long enough to make a difference and no longer. You're still squishier than most toplane matchups and can't really tank anything for anything (just like with every Riven build), but with my build you have nearly 400 AD, enough defense to solo and in many cases 2v1 most champions, but not teamfight against the odds, and with crits it's all the better, especially if you're fighting tanks that can easily shrug off your ability damage and leave you with no offense but autoattacks.

The downside is though, that since it's obvious I play VERY aggressively, I'm pretty likely to get focused and killed quickly in a teamfight when the enemies realize I'm doing more damage than both ADCs, as even most Rivens who build otherwise die when they get focused. Although with the amount of damage I put out, I can typically take an enemy or two with me before I die, which is something a lot of Rivens who build otherwise have no time to do. The difference is that I don't need much time to kill something. If something else works for you, or even just the pros you worship, be my guest, but I like my way.

Before downvoting me into oblivion in a futile attempt to faze me, read this thoroughly and try the build; maybe it'll work for you.


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michelada

Senior Member

12-25-2012

cause she use no mana.


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Samwel93

Senior Member

12-25-2012

Quote:
You're under the implication that I don't get both IE and BT.

IE isn't bad on Riven. Her damage is entirely dependent on her abilities, so when you're on cooldown, her damage drops hard and forces you to back off and wait for your CDs to go down, which I hate doing, and the passive she has only gets you so far; so for tankier enemies capable of outputting a ton of damage lategame, you need more damage equal to ability usage: Critical damage. I also get BT before I get IE.

My build goes something like this: Keep in mind I already have enough armor runes to survive hard AD champions early-game, and the AD/armor pen runes to outdamage them by the time I get to level 4; save Olaf, he has true damage. Not quite impossible to kill though, I'm still squishy.

If my matchup is heavy AD, get Ninja Tabi, if they have any AP at all, like Malphite for example, get Merc Treads.

-Then get Phage for some extra survivability + damage.
-Then Last Whisper for extra damage and armor pen.
-Then get two BF swords, one for each of your BF items. I get two BF swords instead of just upgrading to BT because it allows you to add up more permanent damage you need while focusing on future items for your build. This is purely an economic choice and occasionally I don't do it (if I'm low on gold or don't think I'll gain a lot soon I just upgrade to BT straight away).
-Turn one BF sword into BT first, then turn the other one into IE.
-Depending on the situation, get Atma's for more armor and Hexdrinker>Maw of Malmortius for more MR, and added damage for both. Oh, and with Atma's, extra crit to use between cooldowns.
-Upgrade Phage to Frozen Mallet last. If you got Atma's this will bring its bonus damage up to ~44.

I think you're underestimating just how useful IE can be in between cooldowns. Considering it allows me to smash most Rivens to pieces who follow builds used by "pros" such as yours probably, or builds on Mobafire or Solomid, I think my way works just fine. I don't like listening to people who put themselves on a pedestal, I'd rather listen to my gut and a bit of common sense. If it works for me, it's not wrong. No online build on mobafire or solomid is better than one that suits a player specifically, and mine certainly does.


IE on Riven is a huge waste of money you would be better off going double BT because 30 AD and lifesteal on Riven is far more useful than crit chance. Riven doesn't really need phage or frozen mallet either, she already sticks to her target very well. If you need health on Riven go with a randuins- health, armor, great passive, and an active that helps the whole team. Atma's has been pretty bad on Riven and most tops in general since the nerfs you would be better off with GA there are very few situations where Riven doesn't want a GA, armor, magic resist, and the fact that people are less willing to focus you if they see that you will just pop back up.

A good standard Riven build is:
Tabi/merc treads depending on team comp and amount of cc(if you are in lane against a poke champ cdr boots can be very helpful as well)
Bloodthirster is probably the most important item on Riven
Black Cleaver gives every stat Riven likes
GA nerfed but still supremely useful good defensive stats and the passive is almost never not useful
Hexdrinker/Maw MR and dmg what else do you want(if they do have a cc heavy team merc scim is good but very expensive you probably won't be able to get it till late game)
Randuins Omen tons of health, tons of armor, great passive and active


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X74

Senior Member

12-25-2012

Quote:
Samwel93:
IE on Riven is a huge waste of money you would be better off going double BT because 30 AD and lifesteal on Riven is far more useful than crit chance. Riven doesn't really need phage or frozen mallet either, she already sticks to her target very well. If you need health on Riven go with a randuins- health, armor, great passive, and an active that helps the whole team. Atma's has been pretty bad on Riven and most tops in general since the nerfs you would be better off with GA there are very few situations where Riven doesn't want a GA, armor, magic resist, and the fact that people are less willing to focus you if they see that you will just pop back up.

A good standard Riven build is:
Tabi/merc treads depending on team comp and amount of cc(if you are in lane against a poke champ cdr boots can be very helpful as well)
Bloodthirster is probably the most important item on Riven
Black Cleaver gives every stat Riven likes
GA nerfed but still supremely useful good defensive stats and the passive is almost never not useful
Hexdrinker/Maw MR and dmg what else do you want(if they do have a cc heavy team merc scim is good but very expensive you probably won't be able to get it till late game)
Randuins Omen tons of health, tons of armor, great passive and active


Like I said, I don't use a "standard" build. I use a build that works for me. I don't care how much of a waste of gold you think it is, because in my case, it's apparently not. I've played Riven a lot, and for a long time, and I find that it's better than all of the builds suggested to me.

I don't use GA because I reject it in terms of damage. Notice that no items besides my boots don't give AD, yet some of them give survival stats as well.

I don't use Black Cleaver because I have Last Whisper which scales by percentage, meaning it adapts to tanks no matter how tanky they get, whereas BC has a static amount of maximum armor pen.

I do use Bloodthirster. For the second time, but I always found building too much of the same stat to be stupid, especially in the case of lifesteal which I never found to be mandatory. I got this idea after much experimentation with building her, and eventually came to the conclusion that replacing the second BT with an IE suits me best. It suits ME. It may or may not work for you, but it works for me.

I do use Hexdrinker/Maw.

I don't use Randuins Omen for the same reason I don't use GA: No AD bonus. I don't miss any opportunities to get AD + survival, and I prefer getting both offensive and defensive stats from a single item than just defensive, hence how by the end of the game I have about 400 AD and still half-decent defensive capabilities.

I also don't see how IE is much more efficient than BT considering there was a time I was playing Riven where I got absolutely no lifesteal on her throughout most of S2. My build was boots of choice>Phage>Hexdrinker or Wriggle's (only lifesteal I had, and half the time, never used it), depending on enemies>Last Whisper>IE>Atma's. It worked just fine and I found myself in games as good as 23/0 quite a few times, and the rest were all good games as well. Like I said, it works for me, and I'm not going to buy what you call as a build just because it works for you or whatever guide or pro you're listening to. Just because the way I play seems unconventional and doesn't follow a specific set of rules a few self-proclaimed experts made up doesn't mean what I do is bad, because it actually works; granted, so do those builds, but in different ways. It's all about what you prioritize in a build, and I prioritize killing potential slightly more than I do survival, where most others look for a balance.

I also checked your lolking matches and see you haven't even tried the build I suggested before shutting it down. Really, try it, or I can even invite you to a game some time and show you just how it works.


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Hòlypenguin

Junior Member

12-25-2012

As many have said before, the nerfs are justifiable, but they are far, far too excessive. There are still many champions that can counter Riven before the nerfs. She's a champion where her early game is what makes or breaks whether she is useful at all during the game, and these changes were overkill in that.


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Samwel93

Senior Member

12-25-2012

Quote:
As many have said before, the nerfs are justifiable, but they are far, far too excessive. There are still many champions that can counter Riven before the nerfs. She's a champion where her early game is what makes or breaks whether she is useful at all during the game, and these changes were overkill in that.


The health regen nerfs are what hurt the most especially since most top lanes have base hp5 between 6-8 and many of them have actual healing built into their kit. I honestly can't see Riven surviving the hp5 nerfs but the PBE also lacks players skilled and knowledgeable enough to effectively test the effects of buffs and nerfs on champions. Statikk said that the hp5 nerfs were put in place to stress the importance of using valor to trade, something that any Riven player already does. I think that the changes will also lead to having to max valor first in almost every lane effectively killing Riven's threat in lane and making her a worthless pick. These changes will most likely go through and we will likely be left with a Diana/Rengar situation, or this might be the first of many nerfs coming to the champs commonly seen in top lane although I honestly think nerfs of this caliber to all the common top picks will lead to the bruiser being phased out of the competitive meta.


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IronFoxtrot

Recruiter

01-10-2013

Quote:
X74X:
I don't use GA because I reject it in terms of damage. Notice that no items besides my boots don't give AD, yet some of them give survival stats as well.

I do use Bloodthirster. For the second time, but I always found building too much of the same stat to be stupid, especially in the case of lifesteal which I never found to be mandatory. I got this idea after much experimentation with building her, and eventually came to the conclusion that replacing the second BT with an IE suits me best. It suits ME. It may or may not work for you, but it works for me.


Hmm.


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IS19e711f4829b93c9513d6

Senior Member

01-10-2013

Quote:
IronFoxtrot:
Hmm.


Was it really worth a 2-week necro in an attempt to be funny that fails when people apply basic common sense?


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Worlds Smu Giest

Senior Member

01-11-2013

The best way i've found to build Riven on live at the moment, is Rush your BT, brutalizer, start warmogs finish Black cleaver finish warmogs, then vary from there. I've also been looking into hextech gunblades on riven. the AP is useless but the Spell Vamp and life steal still keep it relevant, and the ranged slow with damage helps a little. I also tend to not buy boots at all unless I need the Merc Treads. Riven's mobility is meant to close the gap and bring the pain, Valor i use to soften auto-attacks and negate the big parts of damage or dodge skill shots.

If anything she's a Melee adc not a bruiser unless you built her straight tank after bt and bc. Building nothing but tank(aside from a single BT) on Riven is not at all what you need for her to matter late game.

I've stopped playing her top lane once i heard this was coming, it's just not going to work when a Garen can just build tank and crush you at level 3-4 and you can't out run him if you are at all pushed. Vlad Can troll pool your combo or have the daunting task of attempting to survive the other very annoying cc, counter engaging, and mobility of champions like Lee sin, irelia, teemo, darius, pantheon, or Vi.

Leave Riven the hell alone, She's fine as she is, granted her ult is a short cool down but it's the only thing that let's her bring the pain early game, without it she can't do much.


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Rush your BT, brutalizer, start warmogs finish Black cleaver finish warmogs, then vary from there.


I tend to rush Brutalizer, then phage/giants belt (generally phage for the slow), boots two, finish black cleaver, frozen mallet and then vary from there. Black Cleaver is something you pretty much can't ignore on Riven. Black Cleaver on Riven is such a broken combination right now. Thus why she's being nerfed. She has burst that no other champions can really compete with. Akali can't compete until six by which stage a good Riven has already snowballed.