Crowd Sourced Behavior Control and an Unsustainable Tribunal Model

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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-20-2012

TL;DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
This is a wonderful statement. Riot has these abstract measures in place to encourage good behavior and discourage bad behavior, and maybe they work kinda well for their limited purpose...but they don't actually provide LoL with a sense of community. And it's that feeling of shared responsibility and ownership that does the most to improve behavior. LoL's community tools are absolutely terrible, and the community is terrible as a result. LoL's client setup doesn't promote group play, so the premade queues wither while solo queue terrorizes the community.

Bottom-up reform, that's the key.
The central Idea here is that the myriad of toxic behaviors is only acted on retroactively instead of in a manner that will actively reduce and STOP toxic behavior as it happens and more efficiently prevent it from reoccurring. The current Tribunal only removes Toxic Behavior temporarily with the hopes that being removed will learn that person to act right -- I think this strategy too lenient and however efficient for removing toxic behavior as it is found it is not a sustainable model for long term growth

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In response too: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2909922
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It is observed:

It's an endless Cycle and no one really wants to do anything about it.

1. Someone Rages
2. Someone antagonizes the Rager
3. Rager Rages harder
4. Team Effort in Antagonizing the Rager for Raging
5. Game devolves into swear match taking away peoples concentration.
6. Rager is banned - Usually coming back with even more disdain.

But take the same person put them into a premade 5 v 5 and they're jolly and suddenly non-toxic as bricks. Solo-queue hinders the consideration of the human aspect of reform. Leading to an inefficient and ultimately unsuccessful system then is actually making it harder for the positive members of the community.

What I mean by this is that since these players are returning, in however many numbers, without achieving a true idea of what it means to reform, yes the words are there, but the policy isn't internalized as important to the individual, in conjunction with thehuman behavioral tendencies to become less filtered in an anonymous setting, it is an inherent problem of the human condition, and because of such we will Never
see a decrease in Toxic Behavior, we may see an increase in the rate at which toxic behavior is acted on, but Lyte I'm assuming that you have some sort of ethics policy that makes this task difficult to ascertain I beg that we move towards a Sustainable Tribunal Model that proactively regulates player behavior on a per-game in such a way the it reinforces the ideals the community wants to uphold - much like how we operate in a real society, if the rules become real to us then they are more likely to be respected, because we chose to operate in the community - accepting its social contract. (summoners code)

Put a face on the rules and we will see improvement - akin to a friend expressing sheer disappointment.

Current Tribunal isn't a reformation system it's a Prison System designed to take people out of the equation, which sounds like the only and best solution. Action/Reaction model, but is it truly the efficient way of our end result.

More importantly what is Tribunal's existence for?

Is tribunal only intended to act on Toxic behavior as it's brought to it and nothing more?
Is tribunal intended to encourage people to be a positive force?
Is tribunal Actually stopping toxic behavior in the community, or is it only acting on it when it " gets out of hand ".

If Tribunal is demonstrating an actual increase in positive player interactions, a measurement which has gone released, please tell us. I want to know if this is happening if it is great the discussion ends here no models perfect, but I know there are better ones that Tribunal alone.

Well you say the model is working, but you haven't release any statics that indicate this.

I encourage anyone to find a statistic that show us Tribunal is in fact making the game a more positive environment

Moving Forward:

You don't reform people by taking them away from the community, the very thing you want them to want to be positively apart of.

The statistics about Tribunal bans are difficult to assess, we don't know if it means all accounts or just active accounts, and we don't know what degree of players per online users are normally found in games.

So it's hard for me to come to any conclusion that Tribunal is working to stop negative behavior as it's happening, which is what it's main goal should be in my opinion.

Real reform starts with and inside the community

Why do we think it's a good idea to remove people from the community when the community is the reason we chose to act civil.

How can banning or imprisoning people with more negative people or with their own negative thoughts be seen as reforming when we want people to adopt positive community member mindsets?

There are individuals who need to be banned because they are too great a threat to the community.

The Prejudice, The intentionally mean, Trolls. People who ACTUALLY are ACTIVELY TRYING TO OFFEND US.

No the rangers or immature. <-- These people need Real reform NOT a prison sentence.

And that's not to say that their actions are oklay and should go without punishment. It means they need to be taught that LoL actually wants In Real Life behavior to be reflected in game.

Raging has been a near past-time of gaming for years, it's joked about in commercials. Why would we think that we can simply whisk away this mindset by banning people, we can't the community has to demand it be met and Tribunal doesn't adequately do this.

78% of all players who end up in Tribunal are warned and are "never" acted on again, but this doesn't mean they're not demonstrating bad behavior still, it only means that they're not being negative enough to be caught by Tribunal, but it also doesn't mean they're supporting a positive playing environment it only means they're not negatively affecting it (their is a difference)

The 1 warning is is not and indication of reformation it's an indication that they like most people aren't prone to unappreciated behavior, but there are tons who are and it's these ones who we need to be most cautious with because if you don't help them properly then the worst have a tendecy

They become and even greater negative force until they're permanently banned

We keep banning them and letting them return even if they aren't demonstrating a positive reform.

What the Hell

Reform doesn't stop with a ban, anyone who works with people should know this.

RIOT Entertainment.

We need reform. We deserve real reform and as it stands the harms of the current non-reforming system are greater than the benefits of temporarily removing people from the community and just expecting them to act to our ideals, and will lead to a rampantly disabling community, one I fear will result in the over judicious behavior monitoring from the non-perspective of the participants playing.

I do assert toxic behavior assessment is fluid per match, not per group of people who aren't apart of teh observable game environment, there is an inherent flaw in this methodology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Detachment from the environment can create a false

The Concept:

I am proposing that this is best done by keeping them in the community and holding them accountable by their peers. And not by the faceless adjudicators of Tribunal.

Real genuine people won't want to re-offend their peers - their friends - their colleagues - their people! Real people capable of reform will care. Real people who WANT to stop raging and don't really rage that much will actually reform when they are met with the disappointment or shame from their peers - more importantly a person will leave the system voluntarily if they don't feel welcomed by the community because of their negative behavior a form of Objective shunning "crowd-sourced" by the will of the people instead of the will of a a disconnected observer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning

Players who behave correctly will feel no negative pressure from their peers, those that do wil and will in turn leave, and if they're a true intentional menace "a.k.a troll" then we send them to a secondary system as outlined below.

The Plan

We need to developed a stronger community System in order to create a greater sense of community and a greater sense of accountability and subsequent reform as per The Concept section.

Let's place the power of reform into leaders hands (Council leaders/Adjudicators/Faction Leaders etc). Have accounts of player reform be submitted per game to a group of individuals hands who individual users on their own free will submit too (Summoners Code Agreement). Create a group system that incentives it's members for having a positive group. Players won't be required to play with these people only (although this might be a good idea to create greater group cohesion for solo queue and pre-made matches just throwing that out), but they will all be responsible for each other.

If a specific groups leaders decides they don't want them in their group anymore because of repeat offense they can be systematically removed by the guilds internal penal system. A leader will be encouraged to remove members demonstrating toxic behavior because of this and a leader who's actions are justified by a members own viewable demonstrated bad behavior (negative reports after a match)

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...hatcat09+brain

They can join another guild and if their behavior stays positive the blemishes are removed and replaced with a mark of approval (by the guild leader). To proactively give that person who is truly disheartened the feeling that they are making positive steps forward and ultimately appreciative of their collective and the community at large. Methods to insure a palyer has a place to go can be enacted.

How this fundamentally differences from Tribunal is while the proccess is happening the individual is forced to come to terms with their undesired behavior/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior_modification

If the neutral behavior modification process fails a player is sent to the legacy system, but updated.

Tribunal 2.0

Not the Tribunal in its current form a Supreme punishment Tribunal one that operates to remove the worst because if you make it here you Really really really really are exemplifying negative behavior, and will either A.) take the reality check after being banned B.) You were an actual troll or past reasonable reform and need to be nixed from the system. Making a new account will be undesirable because they community will notice your lack of change and you'll very quickly make it to Tribunal again and again combined with the lack of acceptance because of your negative behavior (making sure the individual knows why) They'll either reform or leave. Making a new account wont be beneficial since it will die so quickly.

The current system isn't working.

Just because 78% of players don't return to Tribunal after a warning doesn't mean it's any indication that the system is reforming people, it only means that most people don't play this game in a manner that emotionally invest them to it in such a way that they feel the need to be as impacted by it and respond negatively. (The whole riled up in competition Sports motiff)

If you're thinking to yourself:

"I don't want people who are mean to ever be in my game"

Then Wake-up and realize that the Tribunal in it's current form is nothing more than a pipe-dream Hauntingly guised as actual change.

Demand Community centered reform

Actually put the power in the hands of the player and monitor it for abuse.

My estimates based on statistics indicate to me a minimum of a 20% decrease in workload for Riot Support specialist can be achieved if we re-allocate the resources of reform to the players and allocate the resources for punishment to the Tribunal (lead by Riot Administration). Based on the % of players who do in end up in Tribunal 2 or more times (which is currently 26% ----- 5.1% are permanently banned and we know all these cases ARE handled by Riot Support.)

Please I'm tired of watching good people go bad.

Please for what it's worth think -- about what you're contributing too. It's not reform.

It's criminal punishment a system that is empirically not a positive reformation process.

It's not about Tribunal not being good at banning bad people it's about Tribunal sucking at being a actor for true reform, and it's detached from the human element of Crime and Punishment.

My two cents on how to make Tribunal Faster and Better at building a stronger community.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-20-2012

List of behaviors and trends the Tribunal can't handle in its current form that I seeks to better facilitate

Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieeCookie View Post
Players who are consistently toxic will end up in the Tribunal again, in rather short order too. So, while they've been given a brief respite and a chance to show they're not toxic; ultimately if they never end up changing their toxic behavior, then they will keep getting sent to the Tribunal until they're judged guilty.
As indicated in my OP as negatively affecting gameplay.


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Getsuei

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Nice looking post. For all of you nay-sayers out there, this is how you state your case against the current system that is the Tribunal.

But as of right now I have to think more about what you said, so for now I will stay neutral. Nice post phatcat09.


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Witfits QQ

Junior Member

12-20-2012

Wow someone with a brain for once! Welcome please stay we need more intelligent users like you!


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dignitas Rampant

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Sir, its going to take me a while to write up a rebuttal, but this was a wonderfully written post, and this is the absolutely correct manner to go about legitimate debate over the system.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Thank You.... ;-;


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AscleiP

Senior Member

12-20-2012

I woke up with a headache, so I am not in a condition to go through a text wall. But I will definitely come back to this later, and go through it carefully.

Cheers,
D.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-20-2012

It's an Essay not a wall of text.

When did complaining about reading become a cool thing to do? People do that a lot.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampant Idiocy View Post
Sir, its going to take me a while to write up a rebuttal, but this was a wonderfully written post, and this is the absolutely correct manner to go about legitimate debate over the system.
The fact you're so immediately ready for a rebuttal is disconcerting...


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LittleDi

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
It's an Essay not a wall of text.

When did complaining about reading become a cool thing to do? People do that a lot.
Iduno why complaining is a norm. And this is going to take me some time to fully digest. Also others are currently doing so. I'm going to give them an hour first.

Also am I right in claiming the first intelligently posted anti-tribunal thread? I don't even remember anything like this recently.

For that, and that alone, you have a +1.


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