The one thing that DotA has that League doesn't

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Fire Lord Iroh

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergheis View Post
This is literally something that DEFINES DoTA and League, it's not a benefit one has over the other.
Having a lack of itemization for champions causing a lot of them to be unviable is something that defines LoL? Well I'll be damned...


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Notalent

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Housewife View Post
Having a lack of itemization for champions causing a lot of them to be unviable is something that defines LoL? Well I'll be damned...
The only champions that have been reliably unviable are melee carries, and even then its really just Trynd and Fiora who are unviable. Yi is semi viable as an AP carry, Jax is a complete monster. Riot has repeatedly said the problem with melee carries is that they are either brokenly strong, or too weak. Its usually better for the game that they are on the too weak side of that line.

If you were to check tournaments over the last year I'm pretty sure you'd see something like 85 champions where actually picked over that duration.


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Fire Lord Iroh

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notalent13 View Post
The only champions that have been reliably unviable are melee carries, and even then its really just Trynd and Fiora who are unviable. Yi is semi viable as an AP carry, Jax is a complete monster. Riot has repeatedly said the problem with melee carries is that they are either brokenly strong, or too weak. Its usually better for the game that they are on the too weak side of that line.

If you were to check tournaments over the last year I'm pretty sure you'd see something like 85 champions where actually picked over that duration.
Pantheon and Renekton came back onto the scene recently due to the Black Cleaver remake. Prior to this they were considered unviable in a competitive sense. This was due to the fact that although they could dominate early game, they started to fall off mid game and didn't scale into late game at all.

Jax is also not a melee carry. Jax is practically the definition of a bruiser; someone who can take hits while being able to put on the hurt. Characters like Fiora, Tryn, and Yi can put on the hurt, but they can't take hits whatsoever.

Anyway, I could make a list of champions that aren't really in good spots due to lack of appropriate itemization, but I am pretty sure it's not needed.

I'll wrap this up by saying that Karma was also picked at one of the tournaments leading up to the Season 2 championship. Does that make her viable? No not really. Although it isn't as much of a lack of itemization as it is a design flaw in her case, something being picked does not make it viable.


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Holy Malevolence

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Housewife View Post
Sheepstick is nice, but there are times where I wish I had a ****ing Orchid Malevolence in this game hahaha
Likewise.


What's an orchid malevolence? I wasn't aware that flowers could be hateful.


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Falkentyne

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Housewife View Post
Appropriate itemization that allows almost every champion to be viable.

This is not a thread saying that DotA is superior to League of Legends or that Riot is doing a bad job. What I am trying to get at is that in DotA items are available for all sorts of roles, whereas in League new items are more aimed toward strengthening that which is already good.

Is this bad?

No, but it's not good either. Adding new items to strengthen characters that are already strong pushes them ahead of the weaker characters. This makes it more difficult to bring the weaker heroes up to par with the strong. Sure kit balance has a large impact on this, but something noticed across the board as a whole is that while some heroes may have weaker kits than others in DotA, it is made up for through appropriate itemization.

People often times think that the solution to making characters better would be buffing their kits directly, but that is not so. Adding an item that gives them something they need can go a long way into balancing them overall.

Also I know that DotA does not exactly represent the epitome of how to make a character because I know that a lot of them are pretty ridiculous (looking at you Faceless Void), but the concept of providing enough unique itemization to the point where each champion can get the things they need remains the same.

I know that the S3 patch just arrived and that Riot is hard at work balancing the patch. Riot, you're doing a good job so keep it up! However, hopefully, once everything in this patch is more balanced, maybe you can take a look into this.

This is an interesting discussion, suddenly actually reminds me of my old Diablo 1 days (yes I was one of the 1000 beta testers from Kali Starlink..oh god i miss those days We were discussing how "OP" Mages were back in those days, since their *KIT* would always allow them to get their gear back (after dying) even when Naked, with some pots, while other classes (I'm looking at you, Warriors) were 100% reliant on GEAR (and good gear, too) in order to get their stuff back.

This concept of "Kit vs itemization" evolved into the MMORPG genre, where flame wars erupted over whether player skill+kit are the most important factor in determing battle outcomes, or GEAR (*cough* = $$$), tl;dr: the rich players win all of the fights.

I'm not trying to derail the topic, but it's clear that if you have a balance of BOTH, with non "Redundant" champions, you have a well balanced game that can be approached through multiple paths and playstyles.


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Notalent

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Housewife View Post
Pantheon and Renekton came back onto the scene recently due to the Black Cleaver remake. Prior to this they were considered unviable in a competitive sense. This was due to the fact that although they could dominate early game, they started to fall off mid game and didn't scale into late game at all.

Jax is also not a melee carry. Jax is practically the definition of a bruiser; someone who can take hits while being able to put on the hurt. Characters like Fiora, Tryn, and Yi can put on the hurt, but they can't take hits whatsoever.

Anyway, I could make a list of champions that aren't really in good spots due to lack of appropriate itemization, but I am pretty sure it's not needed.

I'll wrap this up by saying that Karma was also picked at one of the tournaments leading up to the Season 2 championship. Does that make her viable? No not really. Although it isn't as much of a lack of itemization as it is a design flaw in her case, something being picked does not make it viable.
Renekton was picked a ton early in the year in tournaments and was even banned away from Wickd a few times. Hes an early game monster and a late game dud, people need to accept that.

Pantheon is a bit weak, and I do agree I think he was never picked.

Jax has 3 steroids and moderately low base stats. Melee carries have steroids that is the definition of a steroid and low base stats. Bruisers have high base damages but no steroids. Yes Jax is tanky, but compare his kit to Fiora and you will come to a terrifying realization that Jax is just more effective. The only thing that has any bruiser-ish ness to Jax is his AoE stun.

Karma is being reworked because she doesn't fit in the Leagues meta game.


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Fire Lord Iroh

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notalent13 View Post
Renekton was picked a ton early in the year in tournaments and was even banned away from Wickd a few times. Hes an early game monster and a late game dud, people need to accept that.
Earlier in the year, when there were less items available and not as many champions. Times have changed. It wasn't until the release of more characters that scaled really hard into late game that Renekton fell off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notalent13 View Post
Jax has 3 steroids and moderately low base stats. Melee carries have steroids that is the definition of a steroid and low base stats. Bruisers have high base damages but no steroids. Yes Jax is tanky, but compare his kit to Fiora and you will come to a terrifying realization that Jax is just more effective. The only thing that has any bruiser-ish ness to Jax is his AoE stun.
Olaf has 3 steroids and lower base stats than Jax. Is he a melee carry?

No. Neither is Jax. I don't see where you are going with this.

Several bruisers have AA resets by the way and it seems to be something that is most commonly found on bruisers. Are you sure you don't want to reconsider his W?


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Deathstalker

Member

12-18-2012

Good luck with Ursa or Spirit breaker in pro play, hue


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Trolosaurus

Senior Member

12-18-2012

I honestly dislike the itemization in Dota
It's the one thing I cannot get down


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Fire Lord Iroh

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathstalker View Post
Good luck with Ursa or Spirit breaker in pro play, hue
Maybe not so much Ursa, but Spirit Breaker is actually fairly competitive.


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