Black Cleaver + Lack of Penetration Auras

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Whelk

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talith PA View Post
I was just thinking that for champions like Vlad, Kat, Rumble, Morde, etc. having to pay for mana regen on an AP item is less than desirable.
This. Too many mana/mana regen AP items out there already, to be honest.


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Ergheis

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Just for one patch, please...

give everyone a 20% CDR Aura.

Everyone gets a blue buff. Would be.... it would be just be...


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ShawNuff

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Member

12-19-2012

I'm not sure how well the CDR aura would work. It would help APs that normally rely on blue buff, but also all other champions that like to build CDR but usually don't have access to consistent blue buffs. Also, ranged DPS almost never builds CDR (except maybe a brutalizer), so they will probably not be too happy from that change. Of course, there are no champions that CDR hurts, but since the "black plague" items, I have seen a definite decrease in the number of AD carries picked in my games (and how effective they were)


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Ryuucat Meow Mew

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Most of my victories as of late on the crystal scar are on ranged carries. Specifically, Vayne. Although the odd Ezereal and Caitlyn game here and there.

With the fast paced unpredictable nature of dominion games, picking a ranged carry is already a rather risky proposition, especially in solo queue. I feel like the armor penetration aura on the map used to help ranged carries early on in the game when picking them led to the least reward; and incidentally can have a snowballing effect against your own team if things do not work out well. That's not to say that this aura provided carries with an unfair advantage that allowed them to win games without being mechanically superior to their opponents, but rather that the aura leveled out the playing field to make this class of champion actually be a viable choice.

The removal of global armor penetration has had a massive effect on the early game of all my games as a ranged carry since the patch - at this point I'm not sure if it's even worth picking this kind of champion unless in a highly arranged coordinated environment. Personally this makes me very sad, I really don't like to see an entire class of champions thrown out the window. I grow rather wary of the stale metagame, diversity is always nice. Variety is always nice.

I understand that the removal of this penetration was done in order to combat bruisers and AD casters from abusing the advantage through out the game. The aura was absolutely too much for them. Before black cleaver even existed it questionable whether or not the aura needed to be adjusted; while it was rather strong, it wasn't impossible to outplay. The introduction of black cleaver meant this was not longer the case - cleaver and ar pen auras won the game, and one shot you. No questions asked.

Unfortunately, removing the aura completely while cleaver still exists in it's current state means that once again it's becoming exceedingly difficult to outplay these kinds of champions. I don't really know how to solve this problem, I definitely do not expect the removal of the s3 changes.

tl;dr - Removing the aura completely helped deal with champions who were abusing it, but it severely hurt the early game presence and overall contributions of ranged carries in general. To the point where I question their already very iffy viability in this game mode.


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Tenebrae Corvus

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Have experienced this first hand and it's rather frustrating. A carry shouldn't have to see enemies simply walking up to them and being killed as their damage is negligible. Still, it happens.


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

12-19-2012

It seems to me that there are three types of champions that dominate at the moment, and three types that might need some love.

Bruisers, AD casters and APs dominate, while tanks, supports and AD carries might need some help. The interesting part is that helping supports and tanks actually does help AD carries a bit, since they rely on their team to work. These three roles have one thing in common: They all rely on having a good teamcomp to shine. Bruisers, AD casters and, to some extent, AP carries are more self-sufficient.

I think a large part of this has to do with the Season 3 changes and Blackfire Torch. Blackfire Torch together with how penetration now works help make AP carries stronger. Blackfire Torch + Void Staff, and they can deal with tanks really well, seeing how that combo removes a lot of the opponent's MR and it does more damage based on max hp.

Some AD casters and bruisers wreck havoc with the new penetration items. Black Cleaver, possibly Last Whisper and they wreck.

Most AD carries are dependent on their team to do well. If their tank can't tank properly, or their support dies too quickly, it will be much harder to play an AD carry, unless your name is Ezreal, perhaps. Also, attack speed items got nerfed, and AD carries tend not to build Black Cleaver that often anyway, so the armor pen changes benefit them less than it does many bruisers. That being said, the Frozen Heart nerf does help them a bit.

I miss Season 2. It was much more balanced for Dominion. I really hope you guys can fix the problems that pre-Season 3 created.


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Das Strychnine

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I had a friend in EUW who pretty much only played carries, mainly Vayne and Corki, I'm not going to say he's name but let's just say I am pretty sure he is #3 or #4 in the Dominion elo ladder, constantly wins tournaments and is probably the best AD Carry I've ever seen in Dominion, the guy would seriously give doublelift a run for his money on Vayne. Since the patch he has completely stopped playing AD Carries, every day I check his match history hoping to steal some "builds" as I am a noob AD carry and need all the help I can get but with the influx of Teemos with BFT and then Assassins with BC he just stopped playing and basically says that there is no point as he can carry much harder playing Talon or Khazix or a Bruiser than playing an actuall Carrier. Not to mention the skill level to faceroll and kill everything on an assassin/bruiser compared to what AD Carries have to deal with in team fights with everyone and their mother having gap closers and CC now is just way too high for the reward it's giving right now.


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Ryuucat Meow Mew

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12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SylianEUW View Post
Also, attack speed items got nerfed,
This isn't completely true on the crystal scar; particularly for ranged carries. The Lightbringer, which was already the most cost effective attack speed item in the game, actually had it's cost reduced in the last patch, while the stats remained the same. Because of it's extreme cost efficiency, it's often a desirable item to build on carries in scar.

I'm not saying that carries don't need help and they're completely fine and viable here, I'm just saying that this isn't necessarily where the problem lies. Generally speaking you shouldn't be building much more AS than Lightbringer + PD on scar to begin with. Because of this, the difference on zeal and PD is almost offset by the Lightrbringer buff.

Carries really lack early game presence and damage right now. I'm not entirely convinced this is an itemization issue. While it might seem that the stronger items in the s3 patch that actually work efficiently on this map favor other classes over ranged carries, that doesn't mean their original standard core of prospectors + zerker + lightbringer + sanguine (I generalize greatly here) is any worse. The problem is until they start buying those items, they feel extremely useless right now. On this map, being effectively useless for too long is very detrimental to your chances of winning, especially in a solo queue environment where allies will not know how to play in order to compensate accordingly. Before the s3 patch this was still an issue, but not the same extent. It was a worthwhile risk and tradeoff, now it's just too much to justify the ad carry pick.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Nome, would liandry's be easier/harder to balance than blackfire torch is proving to be?


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Arance

Senior Member

12-19-2012

With the number of complaints about BFT's AP pen and HP% combination being hard to itemize against, have you considered changing the burn damage to a flat amount with a bit of AP scaling?

Let's check the math:
BFT currently burns for 1.75% max hp every second. At 2,000 hp, this is 35 damage/sec.

Using that as a baseline let's make BFT deal 10 + (.1 AP) per second.
Now, at that ratio the break-even point against a 2,000 HP champ is 250 AP. Not an unreasonable amount for mages to have at all. Some who go hard AP can as much as double that, but those mages are the ones BFT was originally designed to aid the most.

Who does this nerf? Magic dealers who itemize tanky heavily, such as Amumu, Kass, and Rumble. Low HP champs who face heavy AP mages.

Who does this buff? High AP stacking casters such as Brand and Zyra. Any champions with high HP (the break-even point for a champion with 3,000 HP is 425 AP).

Even if this damage amount proves too high, this gives you a bit more options to tune it. You can nerf the AP ratio to .075 AP, making break-even point against 2,000 HP be 334 AP, still not terribly difficult to most mages to obtain. (565 AP to break-even against 3,000 HP champs.) Or you can keep the ratio and nerf the base damage to 5/sec (break-even at 300/2,000 and 475/3,000). Or a combination of both.

This seems like it would make it much easier to find the desired balance for the item between AP casters and magic dealing tanks, as well as present players with the opportunity to itemize against it.