@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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ToMaCoX

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Jax is a fighter, and the distinction is the tools we let him have - things like a stun and beefiness (as well as non-DPS build paths that make sense) make him a fighter. I'm actually worried that by making those guys so good, we can't make glass cannon melee good.
so why you are overnerfing rengar?. Jax is more problematic i think


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had it started at the "proper" range to begin with. It's tough because once players get used to something that's not right, it's hard to change without causing quite a bit of disruption.

I will have Statikk (who is doing our balance patch stuff these days) take a look at the numbers just to be sure, though.
No, it is true. Last night my orbs would not detonate on the golems multiple times. I had to quit attacking and move closer to them, and at first and second clear you take too much damage to waste your orbs or to quit attacking to move in while they beat on you.

I don't really care to hear it matches her animations, that means absolutely nothing to the game play and you all know it. I have an alarm on my car but it goes off from a proximity sensor, this is a common theme in the world, automatic doors open before you run into them, not after, so this failed logic that you have to run into the orbs rather than near them isn't working. If your auto attacks stop you before you get in range of your proximity orbs, and the jungle creeps and enemy champs also have an auto attack range that keeps them out of range, then the orbs aren't working. If the animation has to "match" the detonation then you need to have the animation changed rather than changing the orb impact.

I believe all of her range nerfs were more than uncalled for. Slow the Q if you want and leave the reduced damage, but if the range remains broken then just remove the buttons so we don't lose mana or break buttons on our keyboards trying to use them.


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Myrdraalx

Junior Member

12-19-2012

I feel that you have been releasing a lot of new champions that totally overshadow douzens of older ones that are fun and good in theory but need serious work to be viable in their role compared to the newer, more adapted to current meta champions. New is nice, but you also already have plenty to work with.


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Johnrulz77

Recruiter

12-19-2012

Morello, this being "general discussion" anything goes right?

You seem like a sensible person and It'd be fun to play ingame with you! What do you say?


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Aacey

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure!

Nasus [I]Unsure - might have fatal flaws, might just be because overtuned metagolems.[/I

Warwick Actually a pretty good jungler here - not too worried.

Poppy Blue Yordle needs rework badly

Tryndamere A little on the synergy problem, but mostly this is about melee AD. Tryn's kit would e most likely to be good if melee AD were usable.

Karma Being reworked

Ashe Unsure. Might need a bit of love, but not a rework.

Jarvan IV Whoa, this guy's a beast right now. I think he has some design flaws, though.

Fiddlesticks Good jungler now for something different.

Veigar Good at being a burst mage, and has 2 ults (R and W). I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be.

Tristana Likely needs something, unsure though.

Sion Needs rework.
i saw sion needs rework and i both panicked and jumped for joy

so i figured i would share my thoughts on sion

ive played both ap sion and ad sion and there are 2 main flaws i have noticed, not enough mobility and passive is almost useless

when im ad sion i needed to get frozen mallet and furor boots just to keep up with people, and if they had any mobility in their kit id never be able to catch them and i hated the shield w/o ap it does not shield enough to help anywhere outside of jungle

when im ap sion i love his stun shield combo ( im practically the same champ as ap taric =), and just as viable =( sadface) but same as ad sion i could never keep up with most people to pull off the combo w/o some serious mobility ie blowing ghost.

no matter which version of sion i was his passive felt utterly useless late game and ealry game it felt like a gamble at best unless your jungling

things i love about sion his E ( when i started playing and had no idea why last hitting was important my friends made me try this champ, when i learned i improved alot.), his ult (tho i feel like it could be tweaked for better or worse) and his autoattack animation it is so smooth its just chop.. chop.. chop, his stun would be in there if it didnt cost sooo much mana

anyway these are my thoughts, and if anyone has thoughts on my thoughts please share but there might be a a need to make a new thread for that so in that case quote me and leave a link to said thread


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Aacey

Senior Member

12-19-2012

@Morello

these are a few champs i nerer see playedor play unless my friends are in a 5 man group and some of them just feel off so i was wondering
what are your thoughts on

sejuani

swain

leblanc

galio

siver

caitlyn

rumble

vladmir

shaco

zilean


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MPonder

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

The thread went to a different direction talking about melee carries. I my humble opnion, I would never want to see Tryndamere or Master Yi become viable.

I really don't think would be fun to play against a champion that has 5 sec of godlike mode with one of the best stats of the game. Nor I would like to see Master Yi, sorry, but Master Yi does a good amount of damage in a short time.

What people want to say when they talk about viability? Tournaments? Rankeds? You can play Tryndamere and Master Yi, and you can win games with them. You just need to think like any other pick, if they will fit the team comp or if they are not a bad choice against the enemy team Comp.

Of course, there are better options of champions to do the role and go to the lane which they would go, but It is not about what is better, it is about what you want to play.

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And this thing about Jax not been a carry. Oh well, he is not a carry, he is a hyper-carry. Even on championships, you listen to the casters saying this. Jax skill set is just too good, you can say that he is a carry, a bruiser, a fighter, and you would not be wrong for saying this.

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I would like to understand why Riot nerfed Rengar and Diana. Because of how many times they were picked/banned in championships, or because of GD. I really don't think that GD opnion should really affect too much this kind of decision. You will always see GD crying about the FotM. There was a time that GD was full of Riven QQ threads. Fortunately, she didn't got nerfed that time. Hope it is not because of win rate. Amumu is one of the champions with more win rate for a long time.

There will always be champions that become first pick in ranked unless they are banned, if it is not Diana anymore the one roaming to your lane and killing you, it will be Eve, Ahri, etc. A long time ago, there was Sion, just looking to the past, you see that I'm right. And Sion was never considered "viable" and yet got nerfed, even if it was just 0.1 in his ratios because of GD QQs. Now, Sion is completily forgotten, even though, he can do the same yet. Well, there are better options, well, I don't know.

And Riot never thought on Diana and Rengar weakness. When I see their nerfs, All I see is that they only looked at their strengths. Riot should not only analize where they were good, but their weakness before they nerf champions, analise matches they did good, and matches that they didn't, and thinking better before nerfing a champion

Like Diana, playing her at middle. I really didn't played any normal/ranked game after the patch.

But let's see her weakness. She is melee, you can classify her as a Fighter, Assassin, APC. As a melee champion playing in middle, my first levels and farm are really difficult, more difficult against strong harass champions, like Zigs, Vlad, Ryze, Orianna, Zyra, but after level 6, things start to become better. She is an assassin that go balls deep, and if she can't kill some one, she is pretty much dead. As an assassin, she does more damage the closer she is to the champions, so she needs a way to go in. And like all assassin, she has problem against tank teams, more than usual APC have.

Now look at her strenghts before nerfs, some may be yet true or not. She had good stats, good base damage, good ratios, she had a way to go to the target, a way to stick to it, a way to initiate.

Now Riot already nerfed her damage, ratios and tankness. So, now her lane phase if more difficult. Now if she goes balls deep, she wont do the same damage, and won't handle the same amount of damage. Riot nerfed her ranges, now it is more difficult to stick in to the target and do damage to it

Nerfing only the strengths and not trying to balance with some buffs in her weakness.


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MidbossK

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.
This brings me to a question I've had about melee carries. I'll start another thread on it if I have to, but since it came up here, I just figured I'd ask. You've talked a bit before about "intent" being different than how it comes out in the meta, or how its perceived by the public. This is very true and can be a problematic disconnect, so I'm curious what the "intent" is for making melee-based carries. What's the reasoning for designing such a dangerous role? Was it for flavor? Challenge? Why should we consider picking a melee carry over a ranged? Is a clear answer possible or has the game changed so much that it isn't supporting melee carries at all anymore?

My perception of why the melee carries aren't 'viable' is all of the melee carries "defensive buttons" aren't strong enough. All 4 champions classified as "melee carries" in the menu have terrible defensive buttons. I'll elaborate on my perception.

Yi's Meditate makes him a sitting duck to his hardest counter. Hard CC. Its counter-productive to have a defensive button that doesn't defend against his biggest weakness. ((See also: The W and passive on his kit is kind of lackluster. Want stacks to get to double attack? Forced to push lane. Last hit only? Hope they are in range for Double attack harrass, if not, waste passive on a minion. I feel like his ult, passive, and W could be tied together, and moved around a bit. Something like making his passive the AD increase, letting the ult do the AD doubling effect, and moving double-attack to his W key (like Shyvana) would make him a much more player controlled, engaging champion to play... as well keeping what he brings to the table much of the same.))

Tryndamere's kit forces him to be a sustain/safe bruiser... but give up his attack steroid for his sustain defensive abilities, or vice-versa. Do you save your whirlwind for escaping? Do you use it to catch a squishy, but have no escape? Do you pop heal but lose all your steroids for damage? ...Life steal isnt a solution to the problem because all other carries have this option too, as well as keeping their damage steroid and defensive mechanism. You are forced to play 50% of the character. Maybe make the heal only take a percentage of the total accumulated rage? Maybe let his whirlwind have a lower CD if it hits a champ, instead of basing it on crits?

Fiora's Riposte just needs to block abilities and CC moves for 1 hit or time-based no more than 1 second. Make it a hard-to-time but really worth learning move. Reflecting damage isnt really why we want to use the ability. Thats more like icing on the proverbial cake.

Gangplank is technically a carry even if people try and make him a bruiser sometimes. One of his biggest problems (itemization) was fixed with the new items. (New Hydra and Gauntlet make him scary good imo.) He has low base numbers and even if his W is SO good, having it on such a long cooldown makes it troublesome with nothing else to fall back on. No innate tankiness to stay in the fight that you HAVE to save it for "if you get CCed." Because of this (And his incredible Q), he is a poke champ, and not an AA champ like typical carries, so he cant fill the "carry" role.

Maybe the intent was for the "melee carry" to be a higher-risk higher-reward role, but playing a ranged carry still gives the same reward. Dead enemy champions. So its better to pick a lower-risk champ, that still gets the same reward. This is how I would perceive the 'flaws' with them, but that is based on me assuming I know what the design intent is... which I don't. xD


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YayMii

Recruiter

12-19-2012

Just curious about what's going to happen with Urgot. Is he going through any changes?


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sergeantpickle

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaghatai View Post
Let's talk about Jayce -

I understand that Jayce was very good top-lane, but he was far from an auto-win. He's a very high skill cap champ and should therefore reward people who learn him with solid amounts of power.

However, after becoming a FotM champ - he was excessively nerfed to the point of being essentially unplayable.

Having played a lot of Jayce - I now struggle to find anything the champ can do now except for be a mildly tanky mobile speed gate - and that really sucks.
He has no identifiable play-style anymore.

The plain and simple is - he does not have enough of a support kit to be a tanky support. He doesn't have a tank kit to be a tank. He lacks any burst to fullfill the AD-Caster role he used to fill. He is out-ranged, out-gunned, and out-zoned by every other ranged AD in the game. And the nerf to the knock-back (let alone damage) on the hammer E has made him far less effective in top-lane which is rife with gap-closers. Building him straight up bruiser leaves him in a very awkward nebulous territory where a dozen champs do the job much better since his kit doesn't reward being bruisery either.

Respectfully, what was your goal with Jayce? How do you expect him to be played now?
Jayce is just underplayed. lol

I honestly don't know why people stopped playing him. Maybe because you can't just max E and spam it on the opposing laner with 0 retaliation. That's all you had to do. Hit them with E. Yeah, a lot of people would combo with E but it wasn't necessary pre-nerf. For me, I just got bored with him. Can't explain why...he has a lot of abilities but...he really was boring to me.

There were very few champions that could deal with that.