@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Dunderdase

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistixz View Post
if you deny poppy from farming and especially from getting kills then she is pretty much useless. she is 100% dependant on items, especially her first item triforce. if u see her in champ select then it is to easy to just pick olaf or teemo and reck her from doing anything.

her late game is sooo good, but her early game is hell, even worse if u have hard counters like teemo or olaf in lane.
Poppy needs a way to do well in a support lane without building gold items. Poor mans shield from dota is a good way to cope with this issue.


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Kronusx

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamrioMusica View Post
Have you played with Liandry's Torment on an AP/AS teemo? With Runaan's Hurricane?


The damage was and still is broken. One shroom will do a load of damage, along with the Liandry proc, and can kill you because of the low CD he can spam them with. They nerfed him because without an early advantage for the enemy, Teemo would roll any lane he went up against.
yes I played him with a liandry but that 15% damage works on the health that the enemy already has. I have not tried runaan's Hurricane though


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Dunderdase

Member

12-19-2012

Runaans Hurricane is a great way to ensure that your damage output will be significantly lower. It's only good when paired with a galio or malphite.
Liandry isn't good until late game. It does synergize well with his shrooms though since they double the effectiveness.

Reposting the list of things i wrote on the last page. Bold things are most important.

Here are a few directives:
- Make farming effective for melee champions. There isn't enough to kill.
If you build a tiamat you can farm faster but there isn't enough farm on the map to go with it.
- Give us a dorans shield for carries. Make it more effective on melee champions.
There is no way for poppy, for example, to survive in a 2v2 bot lane situation since the ranged harass is to strong.
- Give us higher tankyness on melee champions but less or no CC.
Melee champions need to survive longer but in order to actually become carries their damage needs to scale with items and they shouldn't be effective without them.
We wan't a carry. Not a jax or a xin zhao. Give us a bash instead of a stun or slow.
- Give us a blink to cope with enemy flash and a way to escape.
A ranged carry can simply flash backwards and get free damage on you. There is no way to safely farm the lanes alone without blinks, tp scrolls or proper trees.
- Give us real ilussions. Why are you afraid of microing? This is a competetive video game - Skill is to be required.
Some heros in dota use illusions to deal their damage. This is a good way to avoid BKB in league if only riot wouldn't be so scared of proper ilussions.
- Let us stack the jungle camps.
To give the melee champions something to farm with their tiamats.
- Make the map bigger.
To room more jungle creeps.
- Give us dodge and mana-burn.
RNG is to be high risk, high reward and nothing else. There should be a way for a melee carry to kill a caster like veigar.
- Give us uphill to ease turteling and stop snowballing.
You shouldn't have to pick Anivia to be able to turtle.



Glad to see this thread pinned.


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Deathpawz

Junior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Statikk might be posting more, but let me update on the details that are concerning in a TLDR sense;

Diana: We overnerfed here, agreed. Will fix next patch.

Rengar: We need to tear him down a bit to build him back up - someone earlier in this thread mentioned that he has too many things to be both balanced and fun, and that's the same problem we detect. There will be additional changes next patch.
I know you might not have time for this and stuff, but how about maybe adding more fury bars to rengar so he actually has to decide when to use them instead of getting them all every 10 seconds and spamming them.


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Dunderdase

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathpawz View Post
I know you might not have time for this and stuff, but how about maybe adding more fury bars to rengar so he actually has to decide when to use them instead of getting them all every 10 seconds and spamming them.
In order to charge up his abilities in the lane he should need to push with the others. He shouldn't get to store them forever to nuke people. Clever play is to be encouraged.


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DanmakuHeaven

Member

12-19-2012

@Dunderdase

I agree for most parts with your wall of text, but there are a few that lacked (imho)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunderdase View Post
this post

First, well it might be opinion based, I think Katarina is trash now compared to before, I once got answered by phreak on that issue which was "Did you use your new spell" which didn't really help my issue with it.

so for the other parts I do question.

A blink to cope with flash, in what scale are you talking, since you are relaying to DotA a lot I would say it shouldn't be a blink, since blink in dota works fine considering every player is able to buy a force staff // dagger, whilst in LoL flash has a 4minute cd and there are no mobility increasing items other than movespeed. So what kind of blink are you thinking about in the first place.

Now for the BKB part.

It would be unlimited OP in LoL, since it would change the entire game mechanics as it is, the difference between DotA and LoL is, that all spells scale of your items unlike in DotA where you don't have "ap" carries - few exceptions.
A way for this would be an upgrade for the QSS which gives you an anti magic shell for x seconds, decreasing magic damage for a fix % amount of damage, lets say 4seconds you take 30% less damage from spells and cannot be cc'ed by non ultimate spells.

the third issue might be that those melee carries might end up to tanky, since farming in dota works entirely different, in LoL the carry gets farmed eventually, it is by far harder to deny his game, no denying and no gold loss on death, also since LoL doesn't use a stat system, the item stats are entirely different by giving the same useability for any item on every hero, in dota a mallet for example would probably give about 300hp+x str, and the melee carries you are talking about would be agi heroes not gaining damage from it. You cannot do that in LoL either without changing the entire mechanics.

also I would love a reply from any dev on my former post, which imo is an existing issue with the current game mechanics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanmakuHeaven View Post
I think the thread shouldn't be limited to champions, afaik the brutalizer nerf (in terms of the armor pen) was uncalled for, I totally agree with the bc nerf it was definitely OP before, but reducing the brutalizer down to 10 arpen compared to 15before was uncalled for, the item was just fine in S2 and since it is the first item in the tree you will most likely get it early game, thus nerfing quite a few champions early because BC's were OP?

Doesn't make a lot sense to me.

Also who had the idea of buffing wards by giving out a lot for basically free which don't even bear a bounty and then nerfing oracle into ground zero - seems kinda weird to buff an aspect of the game and entirely destroy its counter.

This in conjunction with the harder jungle makes a lot of gang reliant junglers not worth playing at all. Imagine jungling jarvan, his speed is amazingly slow now and he can't gank for jack if people ward, since it is just not worth buying oracles on him anymore.

Just my 2 cents on the game changes

I just don't get it how some of those changes are affecting somewhat huge parts of the gameplay nerfing a lot of champs into unplayability and they just stay forgotten.

PS: Do you know what a sejuani is, never seen her.


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Dunderdase

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanmakuHeaven View Post
@Dunderdase

I agree for most parts with your wall of text, but there are a few that lacked (imho)




First, well it might be opinion based, I think Katarina is trash now compared to before, I once got answered by phreak on that issue which was "Did you use your new spell" which didn't really help my issue with it.

so for the other parts I do question.

A blink to cope with flash, in what scale are you talking, since you are relaying to DotA a lot I would say it shouldn't be a blink, since blink in dota works fine considering every player is able to buy a force staff // dagger, whilst in LoL flash has a 4minute cd and there are no mobility increasing items other than movespeed. So what kind of blink are you thinking about in the first place.

Now for the BKB part.

It would be unlimited OP in LoL, since it would change the entire game mechanics as it is, the difference between DotA and LoL is, that all spells scale of your items unlike in DotA where you don't have "ap" carries - few exceptions.
A way for this would be an upgrade for the QSS which gives you an anti magic shell for x seconds, decreasing magic damage for a fix % amount of damage, lets say 4seconds you take 30% less damage from spells and cannot be cc'ed by non ultimate spells.

the third issue might be that those melee carries might end up to tanky, since farming in dota works entirely different, in LoL the carry gets farmed eventually, it is by far harder to deny his game, no denying and no gold loss on death, also since LoL doesn't use a stat system, the item stats are entirely different by giving the same useability for any item on every hero, in dota a mallet for example would probably give about 300hp+x str, and the melee carries you are talking about would be agi heroes not gaining damage from it. You cannot do that in LoL either without changing the entire mechanics.

also I would love a reply from any dev on my former post, which imo is an existing issue with the current game mechanics.
I'm thinking of a blink such as flash but on a low cooldown. It's not the best option but at least it's one option to make a melee carry usable.
There are a few reasons why a blink helps:
- You can farm lanes alone without being in danger.
- You can actually 1v1 a ranged carry without CC.
- You can get out of fights without flashing.
- You don't need your own flash to catch up to your flashing enemy that already has a range advantage.
The real points are honestly just farming and getting out of fights though. Getting hit by ashes slow once shouldn't be a death sentence.
I'm thinking exactly the kind of blink AM or void has in dota. Not on mages, not on assasins, not on bruisers but on melee carries and on melee carries only.

I don't want a BKB in league. It would as you say be immensely overpowered, but not on melee carries. It would just be a way for bruisers to be even better.

Katarina is better now than she was before and by a lot. This is pretty much the general opinion about her and she's even banned competitively in some cases.

You are correct that melee champions might end up being to tanky if you buff them in that aspect but then again that's where balance comes in. You wouldn't build a frozen mallet. What you'd ideally want is an IE/BT and a PD as well. If you don't build damage you don't get damage. There is nothing that scales harder than critical autoattacks. You want a blink, An on hit, A dodge and a decent ult. Nothing that scales with base damages. No xin zhaos, No jaxes and no olafs.

The deal is that if you don't build damage on a melee carry then you are useless but if you get your damage then you should be able to outshine ranged carries in teamfights because it's less safe to farm and deal damage. Even though drow is immensly overpowered and banned from CM in dota right now, a void, am or lifestealer will kill the **** out of her 1v1 and this is the way it should be. If you take the league counterparts, Ashe and for example Yi. Ashe will ult Yi and kill him in three shots.

I shouldn't be discussing more right now though beucase I'm really sleepy and I have a headache.
In my opinions the most important things right now is that bruisers deal to much damage, melee carries are to squishy and easy to shut down and there are no disadvantages of being a ranged carry.


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Senior Member

12-19-2012

I am really disapointed with this Diana nerf...


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Zenmetsu Saseru

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

Rengar: We need to tear him down a bit to build him back up - someone earlier in this thread mentioned that he has too many things to be both balanced and fun, and that's the same problem we detect. There will be additional changes next patch.
I don't like the way you phrased that. :C


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jho228

Member

12-19-2012

any news on the champion Wukong?
any information would be greatly appreciated.