@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Runaway Train

Junior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure!
Sion Needs rework.
Would you possibly be able to give us an idea of what the rework might entail? Is Sion going to keep the health gain on lasthits with his E at least?


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I have a legitimate question about your fundamental nerf philosophies.

How do you prioritize which aspects of a Kit get nerfed. AP Rengar used to be legitimate, for example, but now is completely non-functional being slowly less and less fundamental. Do you just target leverage points that can have the largest change in gameplay with the smallest numbers changes?

I would contend that you lose out on alot of interesting builds because you seek to balance champions holistically rather than the implications of each ability separately. One approach to bringing Rengar in-line would be to ensure that each ability actually has a desired niche. Right now they might have a situational niche tactically, but they are not very defining strategically. Every ability reduces cooldown at the same rate per rank, and the Empowering bonus is mostly consistent between all ability ranks.

I am not going to get into details here, because details can detract from the larger point. My point is that wouldn't focusing on differentiating abilities in your nerfs make it easier to target them without affecting alternate playstyles?


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.
I think I could live with making them fighters. I wouldn't be *happy*, but I could live with it.

I guess the thing is, it feels like there is a simple solution (reduce the dumb about of kit power and snowballing, with an actual laning phase and good stickiness), but you haven't had time to do it.

Example rough sketch for Fiora:
* Burst of speed's stacking autoattack MS bonus is now passive
* Burst of Speed active now scales 40>80% AS
* Lunge first cast is a line-damage nuke that moves Fiora in a direction
* Riposte now reflects next CC or autoattack, and blocks all onhits/autoattack-based-CC
* -10 to passive AD bonus on W

Or at least try something like this. The problem with melee carries is that they are the exact opposite of characters like Irelia; they do a few things stupidly well and have the best scaling in the game, but have no answer to enough that you just... can't properly function reliably.


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJ 21 View Post
I'd really love to hear your opinion on vayne at the moment. I understand nerfing ADC's as a whole was a goal this patch, however it's not affecting all AD's in a similar way. While they are all overally nerfed because items like PD aren't as good anymore, they all have an ability to poke or do burst damage that doesn't rely on attack speed.

Graves Q R
Cait Q R
Draven Q E R
Ashe W R
MF Q
Kog Q E R and so on.

However vayne is different, every AD ratio she has on her abilities rely on autoattacking, her true damage relies on autoattacking, her ultimate relies on autoattacking and her tumble isn't really a poking ability (it's an autoattack damage amplifier at the same range). She is WITHOUT A DOUBT unplayable at a competitive level anymore and is by far the worse AD to pick in any situation even in soloq. I'm not a competitive player but I love vayne's kit and is by far my favorite champion because she has a high skill cap, a fun playstyle and very rewarding when played well. But I just can't find a single reason why I would pick her in a ranked game over some other AD who either stomps lane or is still very strong late game without having such a bad laning phase.

She wasn't nerfed only late game, she was nerfed early game aswell. Berseker's greaves attack speed is more important on vayne than other AD's because damage and attack speed are her only trading tools early game (later she gets crit). Doran's life steal no longer scales so it's a waste of gold on her and vamp scepter is more expensive than before. (she needs life steal more than other ad's because she is squishy and has no poke). Vayne only starts becoming good when she gets 2k gold (boots 2, 2 dorans, scepter) for 160 hp, 25% attack speed, 20 AD and 19% life steal. This is no longer the case with this patch.
Have you seen any Tourney's lately? She's easily one of the top AD Carries at the Tourney Level. Like Kog she makes up for a shaky early game with a beast late game. Try Nunu Support to get an early boost


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OMG Turtle

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Very interesting thread to read.



I'm curious how you feel about Riven?
She's a strong top laner, there is no doubt. But she lacks any sort of competitive showing. I mean she has super escape ability, but she is similar to lee (in terms of assassin kind of nature and the mobility) while lacking the playmaking ability I'd say? Do you think she is in a good position, at least solo queue-wise? I doubt her mechanics will allow for much competitive play (it's either win lane or become worthless generally) however, would there by any change to that?


How about Shaco?
He is clearly a very strong champion, are you happy with how he is though?
He can easily pubstomp, but is actually surprisingly strong in high ELO (~55% in plat) so he has potential. However he has a hard role in team fights, he is insanely squishy so must rely on stealth mechanics and assassinating the ADC/APC and suiciding pretty much.


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Sirleonel

Junior Member

12-19-2012

I should say that i find Darius as one of the MOST OP champs in game. Darius is actually fine, yes, but his ult is all wrong, it's over powered. This is why Darius always get banned from Drafted and Ranked games. Also, everytime i play a random match, he's always there, and he always gets a high score. Riot don't you think you must do something with this? so people can use him in drafted games and also stop spamming him in random that much? i just want the game to be balanced. Thanks !


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Zhané

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not until after the holidays, sad to say.
I'm a little late to the party on this post, sorry. So is that when Rengar will be getting fixed as well? Is there anything you can tell us about the coming fixes for him? Once my beloved main now he is ashes currently Also I was wondering if you would take a few comments on him into consideration?


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xPheer

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
Have you seen any Tourney's lately? She's easily one of the top AD Carries at the Tourney Level. Like Kog she makes up for a shaky early game with a beast late game. Try Nunu Support to get an early boost
There have been no tourneys with the preseason 3 patch where vayne was played. Don't use that tone when you have no clue what you're talking about.


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Higgly

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
Have you seen any Tourney's lately? She's easily one of the top AD Carries at the Tourney Level. Like Kog she makes up for a shaky early game with a beast late game. Try Nunu Support to get an early boost
They weren't using the new patch. Most tournaments play on the special tournament client, which are usually behind in updates. Just watch Vayne or other autoattack based ADC never picked when tournament client gets updated.


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Im Contributing

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.
Well right now Yi is honestly (at least in my opinion) more of an AP champion due to his Q being buffed, along with W cast time reduction. This kind of makes him annoying in lane because of the bonus armor/mr. I know this was meant for jungling, but this makes AP Yi rather annoying.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about:

Alpha Strike
Initial cast time reduced
Chance to deal bonus minion damage adjusted to 50% at all ranks from 20/30/40/50/60%
Bonus minion damage adjusted to 260/320/380/440/500 from 400 at all ranks

Meditate
Reduced the startup time before channeling