@ RiotNome Please help get something done about Kassadin.

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FOODFOOD

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damieh View Post
This will also hurt ez for example, which even if he's on the strong side of the roster, he's not as viable as other champs. Sounds like a pretty good approach anyway though.
It'll be a minor nerf, but he'll still be one of the best ranged ADs in Dominion.


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Risemix

Senior Member

12-17-2012

generally champions who can only die when they want to are bad for the game.

nidalee, shaco, kassadin, ezreal, etc. aren't always overpowered on SR or other game modes, but all of them have been problematic on SR at one time or another for various reasons.

riven is an example of a champion with healthy mobility. she moves about in small bursts and is mobile during a fight. her mobility opens up combat options and gives her a higher skill ceiling, but she can't always just leave when things look bad.

mobility is fine, the ability to just leave because you feel like it isn't. it isn't ok on dominion, it isn't ok on sr, and it isn't ok and treeline. it's just not ok.

there's no counterplay to easy, infinite escapes, especially with guaranteed gold flow. revive just makes it worse.


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Silence is not counterplay, it's a big big hammer that stops the enemy from doing what's fun with their champion. You're not adding much counbterplay by adding more CC to the game, the counterplay with CC exists more during the laning of SR, where you now have a window till the next time the ability is back up.

Kass' brokeness is in his ult, but his silence is a large part of why he is so annoying to play against. Silnce doesn't really make the OPs less OPs, CC affects everyone who is not AA reliant the same, it doesn't affect the OP champs much harder than other champs - even bruisers who love using abilities still have much more powerful AAs to fall back on than AP carries.

Your point is, I don't even get your point. Silence is not going to help solve Kass, it;s a hammer that hits everything indiscriminantly, and is not especially helpful to our fun from the game.
1. Silence is most definitely counterplay. See silence to interrupt channels or to lock abilities out at key times (*cough*anti-flash*cough*).
2. Silence is a hell of a lot better than stuns, knockups, knockbacks, pulls, and IMO snares of an equivalent duration.
3. I'm not proposing a summoner spell silence, and I'm not proposing the next 10 champs come out with 3s duration silences each. I'm asking for the next group of champions to have a couple of reasonably usable silences. The only good ones right now are present on awkward mages, assassins, or supports (Garen would count except his is melee range AND single target :x)

The point is, a disproportionately large group of champions right now which fall into the strong bucket also happen to be really dependent on ability spam. Shutting up Eve in the middle of her combo, stopping Kass from roflblinking away, or stopping Ryze from QWEWQRWEQWREQWing is bad... how?


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MajorUrsa

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Is there a way we could implement a summoner spell to counter kassadin? An exhaust alternative aimed at casters? We have an anti melee summoner spell, how come there's no anti caster spell? What if we had a 3 second silence that slowed the target for 4 seconds by 40%?


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naotasan

Senior Member

12-17-2012

up


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Malah

Senior Member

12-17-2012

The same thing could be said about the entirety of the top shelf champions (and I extend top shelf all the way down to stuff that's still bat**** even with Kassadin and company running around, such as Wukong/Urgot/Poppy) but Riot still won't do anything about it because SR is their pet project, and the only time Dominion gets any attention is when it won't hurt SR. No, I won't go so far as to say we don't get any attention, but we emphatically are not allowed to inconvenience SR in any way whatsoever. As far as Riot goes, the answer to all of the derpass OP on Dominion is that on SR they can either be stepped on in lane or aren't considered strong (I think this was the excuse with Lulu and Urgot last I checked), so it's K that removing their weaknesses on Dom makes them pure derp. The usual problem that they're usually balanced under one situation when you specifically counter them, but otherwise they overrun the match. For bonus points, Draft pick is where it's at so it comes down to dumb luck if you have a pick on your team who can counter cheese, has the setup to counter cheese, and even better, is actually played by someone who knows how.

I could spout off fixes to every single one of the derp picks that would keep them effective and tone down their power level. So could anyone with a decent grasp of balance, as seen in this thread, which is a rather large amount of the vocal portion of whatever community exists for Dominion. I'm sure there's one somewhere. Regardless, it's rather simple to figure out when you're actually playing with or against the examined champions. The difference is that we're not designers; we're people who actually play the map, which is a large difference between us and Riot. They've chosen to shove Dominion to the bottom of the priority list while they play with their newest pet project, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. Just looking at that abomination makes me wary to even let them touch the map's balance given that trying a grand project with TT just resulted in them tossing the entire drawing board out the window and making up a new map which rather pissed off a number of people who just wanted fixes. Yes, different subject matter, but the difference between fixing the map and the champions only matters in deciding who's going to work on it.

The recent record in balancing champions has me leaning towards "no". There is still room for things to get worse.

Really, it's either organize draft games on the forum or deal with people who have no taste picking ban teams in blind pick. At this point I just flip off everyone who picks tastelessly and proceed to either smash them in game when I can get my team to work together or amuse myself ganking bot and backcapping when teamwork goes out the window. Unless you're up against someone who's vastly below their proper matchmaker level or just up against a complete "screw you" mechanic for the champion you have, counterplay is still possible for a lot of the derpy picks.

Ex: Kassadin? I usually end up seeing the glass cannon variety, and there's usually enough of a CDR difference that Bladesurge has a shorter CD than Riftwalk. Add Phage. For bonus fun, have someone distract the rest of their team so you can actually chase him down as he jumps around like a crack-addled monkey. At this point, I pretty much either pick universally salvageable picks when there's a a bit of cheese on the enemy team (Irelia, Lebonk, Sejuani) or pick something less powerful while acknowledging that I'm completely screwed against OP.

Pick Sona and they end up with a Khazix?

Dead.


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Bma

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorUrsa View Post
Khazix doesnt have a reliable escape every 6 seconds, a silence, and a slow, a long with insane ranged aoe burst (His Ws good but its no Kassadin). Khaz is extremely strong on Dominion. But hes not Kassadin.
Khazix is easily on the same, if not higher power level than Kassadin. If I thought Kassadin was considerably better I'd be playing more Kassadin, being the op abuser that I am.


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KaWraith

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeefJerkyHunter View Post
There should just be a ban list for broken champions in blind pick.
If they don't want to fix these issues, at least make it to where people can't abuse them.
^^^
THIS. teemo kassadin jayce khazix, autobanned. 99% of my issues solved.


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IIxeenoxII

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoenA View Post
Khazix is easily on the same, if not higher power level than Kassadin. If I thought Kassadin was considerably better I'd be playing more Kassadin, being the op abuser that I am.
The difference being that kass doesn't have to fully commit to a fight. He can derp his way out of it if things go south a lot easier than KZ. They both deal a lot of damage, that in itself is not the problem. (they are assassins they are meant to do that!) Kass is closer to teemo level in that he has global presence which (KZ does not). Sure he isnt everywhere at once, but bot and those walking through jungle have to know where he is at all times (same problem in SR btw).

edit: I would like to add to that: In that regard, doesn't his mechanics promote passive play? the very thing riot is against, thoughts?


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naotasan

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoenA View Post
Khazix is easily on the same, if not higher power level than Kassadin. If I thought Kassadin was considerably better I'd be playing more Kassadin, being the op abuser that I am.
Thanks for playing the lesser of two evils.

I'd much rather fight a Kaz over a Kass any given day with the current state of the game. I can run away from Kaz. I can't run away from Kass.