You had to fix Rengar's base Hp/5 since you nerfed W's heal

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Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonease View Post
Rengar has no issue as a jungler thats probably where he fits best with the recent nerf to his w.
because of rengar's low hp at lower levels in jungle he can get killed early by counter jungle.

Edit: By low hp, I mean he has like 200 after killing red buff. Normally if you're with your friends and they give you a good leash this isn't a problem, but because of this new leash system no one wants to stick around to help you leash and risk losing those 2 cs.


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Morphine

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Rengar has been a complicated situation.

Our initial approach to the champion was to chip at him until we put him in a good spot. Unfortunately, it turns out there are core mechanics on the kit (ie: % Health based heal, a huge Armor / MR buff, instant stealth) that simply don't fit the gameplay patterns we were trying to create for Rengar...thus we began to gut / remove them.

For example, his stealth duration was nerfed due to the fact that it was instant, but we have now made it non-instant. This leaves his ult feeling more lackluster than ever. The end result is a huge mistake on our part where Rengar is both weak and unsatisfying to play.

Classick and I are currently working on buffing Rengar back into a state where we feel more comfortable with his gameplay. Some of the changes include re-increasing the stealth duration back to create the prowling feel again and adjusting the W heal to be a flat heal based on champion level. We're still working out all of the specifics but we know we took a faulty approach to Rengar's balance for the past few patches.
This is cool - I'm sure you'll make Rengar satisfying and assassin-y without being the eternally splitpushing nuisance we saw near the end of S2. Looking forward to it.

Anyone looking at Diana, though? She feels like some of her problems are similar - range nerfs make her feel really awkward and clunky. I really hope this was a temporary fix to stop her from rolling mid constantly and not a permanent solution to her balance issues. She unquestionably needed nerfing, but taking a hatchet to an entire kit - especially how it synergizes - seems like it might be a bad call to me? Stuff like needing to run past an enemy to blow up your shield orbs, having your ult range shorter than its prerequisite spell... I wouldn't call her underpowered in the strictest sense of the word, just a headache to play.


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Dreegan

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Rengar has been a complicated situation.

Our initial approach to the champion was to chip at him until we put him in a good spot. Unfortunately, it turns out there are core mechanics on the kit (ie: % Health based heal, a huge Armor / MR buff, instant stealth) that simply don't fit the gameplay patterns we were trying to create for Rengar...thus we began to gut / remove them.

For example, his stealth duration was nerfed due to the fact that it was instant, but we have now made it non-instant. This leaves his ult feeling more lackluster than ever. The end result is a huge mistake on our part where Rengar is both weak and unsatisfying to play.

Classick and I are currently working on buffing Rengar back into a state where we feel more comfortable with his gameplay. Some of the changes include re-increasing the stealth duration back to create the prowling feel again and adjusting the W heal to be a flat heal based on champion level. We're still working out all of the specifics but we know we took a faulty approach to Rengar's balance for the past few patches.
Thank you for admitting your mistake, and working towards correcting it.

I'm gonna be honest, with the addition of the new nerf to him, I was mind-blown by how weak and and pathetic this might Predator feels now. And if I had any refunds left, he would've been kicked out faster than Fiora was.

I would like you to address the issues with his Bonetooth necklace and make it something that you actually want to pick up, and not just because Kha'Zix is in the game. Of course if he's in the game picking Rengar might not be the best choice, since Kha'Zix is much more of a powerhouse.

If I also may lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. The "huge defense steriod" on his W... really barely helps, I've noticed. It's duration isn't that great, and maybe it's just me, but when I use Roar to get some extra defense to maybe eat another auto attack from a ranged character, I end up dying anyway. Could you maybe think about giving it a different function?


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VictusOmnis

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Rengar has been a complicated situation.

Our initial approach to the champion was to chip at him until we put him in a good spot. Unfortunately, it turns out there are core mechanics on the kit (ie: % Health based heal, a huge Armor / MR buff, instant stealth) that simply don't fit the gameplay patterns we were trying to create for Rengar...thus we began to gut / remove them.

For example, his stealth duration was nerfed due to the fact that it was instant, but we have now made it non-instant. This leaves his ult feeling more lackluster than ever. The end result is a huge mistake on our part where Rengar is both weak and unsatisfying to play.

Classick and I are currently working on buffing Rengar back into a state where we feel more comfortable with his gameplay. Some of the changes include re-increasing the stealth duration back to create the prowling feel again and adjusting the W heal to be a flat heal based on champion level. We're still working out all of the specifics but we know we took a faulty approach to Rengar's balance for the past few patches.
I think the best way to start is by stating what is/are his primary roles. Currently you have him listed as: Melee, Stealth, Fighter, Jungler. The thing is: you nerfed every single part of what his supposed "roles" are. You nerfed his melee damage output, you nerfed his stealth, you nerfed his abilty to offtank as a fighter, you nerfed his sustainability as a jungler.

I think you guys need to ask yourself what IS Rengar and then start the tweaking from there.


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Yokel85

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

lol. This is absurd. A tanky dps isn't overpowered anymore? STOP EVERYTHING AND FIX IT! No one picks Janna anymore because she's been nerfed to ****? Ignore it for 6 months.


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Beatrix

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Yokel85 View Post
lol. This is absurd. A tanky dps isn't overpowered anymore? STOP EVERYTHING AND FIX IT! No one picks Janna anymore because she's been nerfed to ****? Ignore it for 6 months.
Yeah it's not like they can't just choose from the other 300 that have a gap closer, defensive steroid, and on hit Q.


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USnip

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Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Rengar has been a complicated situation.

Our initial approach to the champion was to chip at him until we put him in a good spot. Unfortunately, it turns out there are core mechanics on the kit (ie: % Health based heal, a huge Armor / MR buff, instant stealth) that simply don't fit the gameplay patterns we were trying to create for Rengar...thus we began to gut / remove them.

For example, his stealth duration was nerfed due to the fact that it was instant, but we have now made it non-instant. This leaves his ult feeling more lackluster than ever. The end result is a huge mistake on our part where Rengar is both weak and unsatisfying to play.

Classick and I are currently working on buffing Rengar back into a state where we feel more comfortable with his gameplay. Some of the changes include re-increasing the stealth duration back to create the prowling feel again and adjusting the W heal to be a flat heal based on champion level. We're still working out all of the specifics but we know we took a faulty approach to Rengar's balance for the past few patches.
I hope you guys put equal focus on making sure the players playing against rengar have fun. His tanky DPS build is pretty toxic but actually the assassin AD build is just as unfun to play against. I would really rather never have him viable than see him on the opposing team and know that as a squishy, I'm going to be exploded without counterplay several times throughout the game. In my opinion he is yorick level toxic.

I hope what you guys do is hit his upfront burst damage really hard and give him more sustained damage, like a longer Q duration or something, so that he'll be a melee carry instead of an assassin or tanky dps. I don't want rengar to exist with either of those builds in my games.


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NVDax

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Rengar has been a complicated situation.

Our initial approach to the champion was to chip at him until we put him in a good spot. Unfortunately, it turns out there are core mechanics on the kit (ie: % Health based heal, a huge Armor / MR buff, instant stealth) that simply don't fit the gameplay patterns we were trying to create for Rengar...thus we began to gut / remove them.

For example, his stealth duration was nerfed due to the fact that it was instant, but we have now made it non-instant. This leaves his ult feeling more lackluster than ever. The end result is a huge mistake on our part where Rengar is both weak and unsatisfying to play.

Classick and I are currently working on buffing Rengar back into a state where we feel more comfortable with his gameplay. Some of the changes include re-increasing the stealth duration back to create the prowling feel again and adjusting the W heal to be a flat heal based on champion level. We're still working out all of the specifics but we know we took a faulty approach to Rengar's balance for the past few patches.
With ad being made cheaper across the board, could we possibly look into his item now? It just generally feels like there are better buys then that.


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ShiznazTM

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Rengar has been a complicated situation.

Our initial approach to the champion was to chip at him until we put him in a good spot. Unfortunately, it turns out there are core mechanics on the kit (ie: % Health based heal, a huge Armor / MR buff, instant stealth) that simply don't fit the gameplay patterns we were trying to create for Rengar...thus we began to gut / remove them.

For example, his stealth duration was nerfed due to the fact that it was instant, but we have now made it non-instant. This leaves his ult feeling more lackluster than ever. The end result is a huge mistake on our part where Rengar is both weak and unsatisfying to play.

Classick and I are currently working on buffing Rengar back into a state where we feel more comfortable with his gameplay. Some of the changes include re-increasing the stealth duration back to create the prowling feel again and adjusting the W heal to be a flat heal based on champion level. We're still working out all of the specifics but we know we took a faulty approach to Rengar's balance for the past few patches.

I feel like you guys contradict yourselves a lot.

You release a champion that has the feel, but you then go back on yourselves and say it doesn't, nerf it to hell, and leave it for two years into the future. I don't get it.


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Aeolian Melodies

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeigneurLemieux View Post
Sometimes if you nerf an ability directly, another characteristic of the champion will indirectly be nerfed.

It is the case with Rengar's sustain. His Base Hp/5 was nerfed (~ halved) a few patches ago to compensate the fact that W was too great of a sustain inlane. His Hp/5 sustain was aggressively nerfed because W needed a nerf.

But now, by lowering W's healing by 1/3, his sustain went down by alot since Rengars won't use Emporerd W as often and when they do it won't heal as much.

Since his sustain took a huge hit, it would be a good timing to put his Hp/5 on a more reasonable number. Right now it's the lowest of the game at any level, and by alot. I've always felt like if you have to nerf base stats SO MUCH because of the champion's kit, then do not look elsewhere: the kit itself is broken. Fix it. Don't kill a champion's base stats because of it.

A little statistic:

Rengar's HP/5 at lvl 18 : 11.2
Riven's hp/5 at lvl ONE: 11.3
I'm sorry, are you crying for Rengar buffs?!

Now I've seen it all. ALL.


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