Blade of the RK vs Blood Razor (ISO RED)

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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblast123 View Post
I hear this nonsense about 200-300 MR.. it almost never happens on a tank or bruiser. First, very few champs have scaling MR.. most are flat 30. So they have to buy MR items.. to get that over 100, u need something on the level of abysmal scepter.. which is not really appropriate for an AD tank... to get over 200, you would need at least 2 more MR items.. so if a tank got 3 slots gone with MR, one with boots, he would only have 2 slots/items left for armor, health, AD or AP power.. pretty much useless as a tank or anything else. Virtually all tanks get armor or health or AD/AP items without MR.. possible guardian angel at the end of their build.

There may be a few champs that scale MR, but they are few and far between.. besides, who levels up MR to anywhere near that level.. and if they do, they have nerfed themselves.. if they do that, then the reason for MBR existence is justified..

I am surprised that MBR was deleted.. as were virtually all AD/AS items...most ADC have been nerfed as well, UNLESS they had an intrinsic speed component as part of their ability package.. ie Yi, Tristana, Kog Maw, etc..

Take Caitlyn for example.. completely nerfed by the lack of combo AD/AS items.. i hardly use her anymore. There are some others..

I really question why LOL would "fix" something that ain't broke"...it is very discouraging.
Okay, I was referring more to the old context where FoN was in the equation, and meant that bruisers automatically had 110 MR, plus 30-50 from their support, and probably another 50+ from some other item (SV on Mundo, Abyssal on Malphite, etc.). Also, you'd be surprised how many champions have scaling MR; almost every truly tanky champion (from Garen to Galio) has bonus MR per level, and/or they have an inherent MR buff on the order of 50 to 150 or more. Currently MR is no harder to come by despite the removal of FoN (Bulwark gives everyone +30, and the tank bearing it gets 30 more), so MBR would still be in that 1.3% category, which means that . . . 70 hits later . . . .

Riot has already (and repeatedly) called MBR a bruiser-friendly noob-trap, and this is probably in part because magic on-hit procs don't (or at least didn't) benefit from MP, just like item actives didn't benefit from MP. Physical procs however, like BRK & Trinity, do benefit from armor penetration (again, confirmation would be nice), which means that BRK gives you 2% of the target's max hp per strike on average (because avg(0,4) = 2). Heavily armored champions (e.g. ~250-300 AR, 130-160 effective) can reduce that by 60%, but unless they're a tank they're giving up damage to get that armor (or MR, or actual health).

As far as AS goes, PhD was usually a better investment, as it literally doubles an ADC's damage output. This is especially true on champions like Cait who, while they don't have an ability-based AS buff, do have very good base AS values (which means that AS is better on them than other champs) - .668 vs .625; .694 is the max, and she gets 50% bonus AS naturally (from levels). Besides this, Cait is the only ranged ADC who can deal triple damage to a champion. Furthermore, you can get your 70% AS in one item now, that also has a very nice passive (Runaan's).


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Peligrad

Senior Member

12-19-2012

BotRK is an on hit item...first and formost.

If your champion is largely skill damage based the BT is going to work much better...

The item shines on champions that have a lot of AS built into them or who have on hits in their kit and first build AS.

For example. Xin Zhao has a lot of AS built into his kit. He also typically builds some AS. While his AD ratios are decent, they aren't incredible either. So BotRK is a very good item on him.

Another example is Kog'Maw. He has other on hits in his kit. He also has nice synergy with BothRK in that he shreds armor. He doesn't have great AD ratios though and he builds lots of AS with serker grieves and hurricane. So building RothRK is great on Kog.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
I'm not terribly sure about being an anti-bruiser item. The magic current health shred doesn't scale with anything but magic penetration (I mean, no matter how much attack speed, attack damage, critical strike chance, or armor penetration you have the on-hit effect will restore the same level of health regardless of who you put it on).
Okay, I should've stopped reading after the word "magic" because BRK doesn't deal magic damage (except possibly the active), it deals physical damage, which makes a big difference. Namely, magic on-hit procs don't benefit from penetration, last I checked, and MR shred is very hard to come by in the game, but physical procs do benefit (again, red confirmation would be awesome). Furthermore, there's the possibility that BRK adds to the outgoing damage, and therefore can crit, which MBR definitely could not do, which would put the 2% avg damage up to 5% avg damage, and up to 10% damage for a target at full health.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
MR and Armor reduces damage . . . so there is no inherent drawback to being without magic penetration when adding some level of bonus magic damage into a rotation (such as MBR or Sunfire Cape). Beyond that it's unlikely any opponent will have more MR than Armor, unless your team is very magic heavy - which makes bringing up resistances a moot point, things like Infinity Edge are going to be more negatively impacted by resistances than Madred's Bloodrazors 95% of the time.

Madred's Bloodrazors and Black Cleaver offered a higher DPS output than Infinity Edge and Phantom Dancer against reasonable resistances as well - so saying you needed Malady for MBR isn't particularly accurate on that account. . . . , but the capacity to bypass and shred armor makes the end result higher. So you don't need Malady for Madred's to leave a dent - that thing dealt 80 damage with each auto-attack against a target with 2k health with just the passive, nevermind that 40 AD and 40 AS is superior to 80 AD just due to the fact the multiply each other.

Not that I'm a fan of MBR, but the thing does offer 4% HP shred, 40 AD, 40 AS, and 25 armor - not just 4% HP shred. While the overall attribute mixes are awkward on it and hard to discern a solid build path for, the item itself wasn't impotent by any stretch. You just ended up having redundant and counter-intuitive synergy with other things.
Most if not all of this is patently false, and bad mathcraft. It has been demonstrated and proven that in Season 2, IE+PhD completely outscaled MBR+any, and that LW > BC, so: IE, PhD, BT, and LW >>> MBR+BC+any, in Season 2. In Season 3, the only new single-target raw damage item (for AD) is BRK. BC was reworked, but is still inferior to LW for an ADC (unless they have 0 bonus armor). Once again, MBR never benefitted from mpen, so mshred was required for that 4% to actually be 4% (rather than 1%).

Armor values have always been higher than MR values (generally), but that doesn't change the fact that IE &etc. was (and is) less impacted than MBR because they benefit from penetration, while MBR does not, and they scale multaplicitavely with crit. You can search out the math for yourself, but IE+PhD+BT+LW (just those 4) were worth 300 x 1.825 = 550 or more per hit, reduced to 210 on a 300 (i.e. 160) armor tank vs. MBR that only did 1.3% against the same tank with 200 (i.e. 200) MR. The tank would have to have 16,000 actual hit points before those damages were even close to comparable. Of course, MBR is just one item, but compared to any one of the above 4 items: IE, PhD, BT, and LW, it didn't measure up; in the best of cases, the team would have to have ~3000 actual average hp before MBR could be considered for replacing BT. Since most champs on a team (i.e. 3-4) were in the 1500-2000 range, that means the other 1-2 would have to have over 5000 hp each.

Now, it's horrid passive aside, MBR was a decent bruiser item; giving a mix of offense and defense, and for those aspects it was quite gold efficient; but even then, the actual upgrade was really just a convenient way to free up 1-2 extra slots. Contrary to popular believe (and I had fallen for it until recently myself), MBR did not work on the expected culprits (Kog, Trist), but wasn't so bad on unexpected champions (Jarvan IV, tank Jax) - not for the passive, but simply for the raw stats.

Lastly, unless BRK benefits from both arpen (it should), and crit (no idea), it's still inferior to the standard 4 for single-target damage. If it does benefit from both, then it's at least a niche item for dealing with the more recent team comps that run 2-3 bruisers, which is more than MBR ever (truly) had.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
BotRK is an on hit item...first and formost.

If your champion is largely skill damage based the BT is going to work much better...

The item shines on champions that have a lot of AS built into them or who have on hits in their kit and first build AS.

For example. Xin Zhao has a lot of AS built into his kit. He also typically builds some AS. While his AD ratios are decent, they aren't incredible either. So BotRK is a very good item on him.

Another example is Kog'Maw. He has other on hits in his kit. He also has nice synergy with BothRK in that he shreds armor. He doesn't have great AD ratios though and he builds lots of AS with serker grieves and hurricane. So building RothRK is great on Kog.
Assuming as I discussed above (and elsewhere) that BRK crits & pens, then it has its place against a bruiser-heavy comp. Otherwise, BT is pound-for-pound a superior item on almost any champ, including Xin & Kog. Xin may still prefer BRK for the lifesteal & drain, but Kog should get better lifesteal from a BT, and should not ever be close enough to use BRK's active (unless you're trolling for passive kills).


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Autocthon

Senior Member

12-20-2012

BotRK does physical damage.


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67chrome

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
Okay, I was referring more to the old context where FoN was in the equation, and meant that bruisers automatically had 110 MR, plus 30-50 from their support, and probably another 50+ from some other item (SV on Mundo, Abyssal on Malphite, etc.). Also, you'd be surprised how many champions have scaling MR; almost every truly tanky champion (from Garen to Galio) has bonus MR per level, and/or they have an inherent MR buff on the order of 50 to 150 or more. Currently MR is no harder to come by despite the removal of FoN (Bulwark gives everyone +30, and the tank bearing it gets 30 more), so MBR would still be in that 1.3% category, which means that . . . 70 hits later . . . .
As cute as saying MBR was worthless because every bruiser has Force of Nature and a Sona fallowing them around with an Aegis and spamming Aria of Perseverance is, it doesn't offer a very reliable starting point to determining item efficiency concerning DPS. The goal for calculating and comparing items should be the most common circumstance, not the most extreme. So saying that a unique combination of itemization, positioning, a chosen target, and team composition counter a specific item is pointless - that holds true for every single item in the game.

Also, Galio is like, one of 7 melee champions that doesn't gain MR per level. Which I find amusing, considering of all the champions to bring up, you chose him. And for MR per level it's usually just "melee" not "truly tanky" - all 4 melee carries and the majority of melee assassins gain MR from leveling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
Riot has already (and repeatedly) called MBR a bruiser-friendly noob-trap, and this is probably in part because magic on-hit procs don't (or at least didn't) benefit from MP, just like item actives didn't benefit from MP. Physical procs however, like BRK & Trinity, do benefit from armor penetration (again, confirmation would be nice), which means that BRK gives you 2% of the target's max hp per strike on average (because avg(0,4) = 2). Heavily armored champions (e.g. ~250-300 AR, 130-160 effective) can reduce that by 60%, but unless they're a tank they're giving up damage to get that armor (or MR, or actual health).
I've read things that don't mesh up with what I've experienced and tested in-game from Rioters before, even rather credible ones. Also, you're the first person who I've read stating that magic penetration doesn't work on certain applications of magic damage - which I have trouble believing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
As far as AS goes, PhD was usually a better investment, as it literally doubles an ADC's damage output. This is especially true on champions like Cait who, while they don't have an ability-based AS buff, do have very good base AS values (which means that AS is better on them than other champs) - .668 vs .625; .694 is the max, and she gets 50% bonus AS naturally (from levels). Besides this, Cait is the only ranged ADC who can deal triple damage to a champion. Furthermore, you can get your 70% AS in one item now, that also has a very nice passive (Runaan's).
Phantom Dancer doesn't even double DPS at level 1 when it doesn't have to put up with much in the ways of per-level attack speed gains. The best it offers is 95%, though once you hit 18 your own base attack speed causes that AS boost to be significantly less noticeable, only increasing DPS by around ~73%. It doesn't literally double DPS. It only, like*, doubles it at level one.

* or insert any euphemism with connotations involving rough approximations here.


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67chrome

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
Okay, I should've stopped reading after the word "magic" because BRK doesn't deal magic damage (except possibly the active), it deals physical damage, which makes a big difference.
I've been testing the item in PBE from before it's release in Twisted Treelines. It used to deal magic damage. Not that the change to physical damage makes that much of a difference for the point I was making - optimally utilizing it is still significantly easier on a bruiser than anyone that needs anti-bruiser capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
Most if not all of this is patently false, and bad mathcraft. It has been demonstrated and proven that in Season 2, IE+PhD completely outscaled MBR+any, and that LW > BC, so: IE, PhD, BT, and LW >>> MBR+BC+any, in Season 2. In Season 3, the only new single-target raw damage item (for AD) is BRK. BC was reworked, but is still inferior to LW for an ADC (unless they have 0 bonus armor). Once again, MBR never benefitted from mpen, so mshred was required for that 4% to actually be 4% (rather than 1%).
As for MBR being infirior to The Bloodthirster, Phantom Dancer, Infinity Edge, and Last Whisper you can check out the math here describing how MBR in fact does offer greater DPS than Last Whisper even in a very committed 6-item carry build. MBR more or less increases DPS per gold by the same amount as Last Whisper - it's just more expensive so it offers more. Considering all The Bloodthirster offers is flat AD I'd imagine it wouldn't have trouble surpassing that item either.

There is more important things than damage in carries - if damage was all that mattered Guardian Angel and Quicksilver Sash wouldn't see play on them. Utility offered by things like Life Steal and Movement Speed can actually make less-damaging items more appealing. The problem with MBR isn't damage - which seems to be what you're implying. Which is false, because damage is something MBR does (or did rather) better than a considerable amount of items.

And wow, calling my math bad. Them's fightin' words.

As it stood in season 2, Infinity Edge and Phatnom Dancer really did output less damage than Madred's Bloodrazors and Black Cleaver. The major advantage of that approach is movement speed and burst. Landing a critical strike on a squishy target generally encourages them to run away without retaliating, were dealing less variable damage is easier to deal with.

Anyways: for the math (we're going to use season 2 values here).

Infinity Edge offers 80 Attack Damage, 25% critical strike chance, and causes critical strikes to deal 250% damage instead of 200%.
Phantom Dancer offers 55% attack speed and 30% critical strike chance, in addition to an impressive 12% movement speed.

Madred's Bloodrazors have 40 Attack Damage, 40% Attack Speed, 25 Armor, and deal bonus magic damage equal to 4% of the target's maximum health per hit.
Black Cleaver offers 55 Attack Damage, 30% Attack Speed, and applies a stacking armor debuff capable of reducing armor by 45.

Say we use the items on a really average champion at level 18.

You have 110 attack damage, a base attack speed of 0.667, and +50% attack speed from leveling up.

the IE+PD combo will net you 190 AD (110+80), 1.37 attacks per second (0.667*(1+0.50+0.55), and grant a 68.75% DPS boost from critical strikes ((25+30)*1.25).

Which results in 438 DPS. Not bad, but that's against 0 resistances. Considering we're dealing with armor penetration, lets compare that to some armor.

438 DPS against 0 resistances
292 DPS against 50 resistances
219 DPS against 100 resistances
175 DPS against 150 resistances
146 DPS against 200 resistances

The MBR+BC combo will net you 205 AD (110+40+55), 1.47 attacks per second (0.667*(1+0.5+0.4+0.3)), and grant up to 45 armor penetration. Considering the armor penetration benefits allies, let's just count it as being at full stacks for the utility aspect.

With the AD and AS alone you only deal 301 DPS (obviously less).
However, Black Cleaver can take targets below 0 armor - so against the "true damage" of IE+PD it's going to deal 436 damage to something at -45 armor. 2 less DPS than the IE+PD combo, and we didn't even add the health shred from MBR. Anyways, let's list the DPS of MBR+BC without the %HP shred - so we know how much health we need for it to be better. For the purposes of seeing how effected MBR is by MR let's assume targets have an equal amount of armor and magic resistances.

436 DPS against 0 resistances (-2)
286 DPS against 50 resistances (-6)
194 DPS against 100 resistances (-25)
147 DPS against 150 resistances (-28)
118 DPS against 200 resistances (-28)

MBR's passive is only multiplied by the Attack Speed, but let's see how much DPS it offers for each point of health on the enemy against resistances.

0.058696 DPS per HP vs. 0 resistances
0.039131 DPS per HP vs. 50 resistances
0.029348 DPS per HP vs. 100 resistances
0.023478 DPS per HP vs. 150 resistances
0.019565 DPS per HP vs. 200 resistances

So, to get MBR+BC to a point were the surpass IE+PD in DPS, let's see how much HP a target needs to cover the DPS discrepancy listed above. Turns out, for the different resistance levels it works out to:

0 resistances = 38 HP (to cover the ~2 damage difference)
50 resistances = 148 HP (to cover the ~6 damage difference)
100 resistances = 856 HP (to cover the ~25 damage difference)
150 resistances = 1219 HP (to cover the ~28 damage difference)
200 resistances = 1440 HP (to cover ~28 damage difference)

Even with all that damage reduction form resistance (and with having no magic penetration or magic shred), it's almost inconceivable to run into an opponent with less health than MBR's passive needs to out-damage IE+PD.

Which means 2 things:
1) you don't need any magic penetration for MBR to deal enough damage to merit picking it up. It deals enough damage you can ignore magic penetration entirely.
2) Madred's Bloodrazors and Black Cleaver deal more damage than Infinity Edge and Phantom Dancer.


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gblast123

Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post

As far as AS goes, PhD was usually a better investment, as it literally doubles an ADC's damage output. This is especially true on champions like Cait who, while they don't have an ability-based AS buff, do have very good base AS values (which means that AS is better on them than other champs) - .668 vs .625; .694 is the max, and she gets 50% bonus AS naturally (from levels). Besides this, Cait is the only ranged ADC who can deal triple damage to a champion. Furthermore, you can get your 70% AS in one item now, that also has a very nice passive (Runaan's).
U are dead wrong again about PhD. In another thread, u didn't seem to realize that PhD only increased the native AS.. you seem to have correct some of ur past mistakes but saying, AGAIN INCORRECTLY, that PhD doubles damage output is sooo far off base, its not funny.

Please do some math again.. like 67chrome does. He has a great understanding of the game, in contrast to ur continued ignorance..


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gblast123

Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post

Even with all that damage reduction form resistance (and with having no magic penetration or magic shred), it's almost inconceivable to run into an opponent with less health than MBR's passive needs to out-damage IE+PD.

Which means 2 things:
1) you don't need any magic penetration for MBR to deal enough damage to merit picking it up. It deals enough damage you can ignore magic penetration entirely.
2) Madred's Bloodrazors and Black Cleaver deal more damage than Infinity Edge and Phantom Dancer.
Its good to finally see that there people here who can add.. but the amazing thing is that there are sooo many people like Beaumains who cannot... and many people believe him.

One thing i would like to add is that MBR gave u 25 armor.. which is not a game changer, but was significant in terms of survivability.

As for Season 2, i had a build which i did not publicize... for obvious reasons.. which consisted of Witts End, Ionic spark, MBR and Blk cleaver. Along with the old Ber. Greaves, attack speed was close to max and the DPS was in the 800-1000 range, but as mixed AD and Magic Damage. There was simply no way to defend against it... unless u got both MR and Armor.. . I was testing it on all the ADC builds.. Caitlyn, MF, Yi, and Nocturne, etc... and it was gaining popularity..

IE and PhD, BT and Blk Cleaver didn't come close to the damage that I was doing.

So, Beaumains, idk what ur building or how ur ranked.. but if u decide to look at some numbers, and do some calcuations..ull get to be a better player.

67 chrome, ur calculations are spot on.. and u r totally correct!!!


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
As cute as saying MBR was worthless because every bruiser has [absurdly high MR] is, it doesn't offer a very reliable starting point to determining item efficiency concerning DPS. . . . . .

Also, Galio is like, one of 7 melee champions that doesn't gain MR per level. Which I find amusing, considering of all the champions to bring up, you chose him. And for MR per level it's usually just "melee" not "truly tanky" - all 4 melee carries and the majority of melee assassins gain MR from leveling.
I stand corrected on Galio (et al), since the principle stands that, as you youself point out, it's very easy to accumulate absurdly high MR, Sona or no Sona. I therefore also disagree that the instance is not pointless, since balance must come first and foremost to the games where people play intelligently (e.g. building as much resistance as possible while optimizing for their champion, circumstance, and enemy).



Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
I've read things that don't mesh up with what I've experienced and tested in-game from Rioters before, even rather credible ones. Also, you're the first person who I've read stating that magic penetration doesn't work on certain applications of magic damage - which I have trouble believing.
I recently learned that pen was supposed to benefit procs. I had run bot games trying to determine if MBR benefitted from MP, and thought it not to be the case; it may have merely been a negligible one, or the circumstance was not suitable for the test. As it was a long time ago, I don't remember the specifics. However, S3 apparently has items benefitting from penetration, I seem to recall Red confirmation on this, and I thereby retract any statement to the contrary, and concede applicable points. However, the fact remains that ADCs have 0 room for a Void Staff.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
Phantom Dancer doesn't even double DPS at level 1 when it doesn't have to put up with much in the ways of per-level attack speed gains. The best it offers is 95%, though once you hit 18 your own base attack speed causes that AS boost to be significantly less noticeable, only increasing DPS by around ~73%. It doesn't literally double DPS. It only, like*, doubles it at level one.

* or insert any euphemism with connotations involving rough approximations here.
I was under the false impression that naturally scaling AS added to the base AS, and that therefore PhD and other AS boosting items multiplied a champion's total AS (excluding items), not the ~.625 value that they start with. Nevertheless, MBR's 1-2% health based damage would require an especially beefy team before it even became comparable to a full 70%+ DPS, despite granting 10% less AS and 40 AD.





Now if I may be permitted a moment of sarcasm, I'll take this opportunity to kindly thank gblast for his insults and harassment, and notify him that I'll be ignoring all of his posts from this point, except at my discretion and/or convenience.