@Riot Bizarre Teemo Nerfs

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HothsotGG

Junior Member

12-12-2012

An objective discussion regarding the recent Teemo nerfs.

The latest preseason patch has resulted in some serious changes to Teemo.

Quote:
[E] - Toxic Shot
Now scales 0.3 (down from 0.4)
[R] - Noxious Trap
Now deals 200/325/450 (down from 200/400/600)
I'd like to provide a more objective discussion to why I think that this is the wrong way to approach this.

Magnitude of Nerfs
Toxic Shot
The 25% nerf to toxic shot is huge. At the completed AP build of 400 AP, this is a reduction of 40 magic damage each shot. This is almost the same as a whole BF Sword! At any rate, I believe that this is the wrong approach. People usually complain about Teemo because of his shrooms.

Noxious Trap
Likewise the 25% nerf at level 3 is also huge. Shrooms are the defining feature of Teemo as he is useless in teamfights. This change will make him completely useless as shrooms will not act as much of a deterrent anymore. If this is done, then I suggest to improve CDR as a means to compensate.

Psychological Biases
Teemo is very annoying but that does not mean he is objectively overpowered. Yes, it is very infuriating when I get killed by a shroom whilst running away. Thus, it becomes psychologically more memorable compared to getting killed by an adc. Emotionally, I may feel that Teemo is OP, but objectively, this is not true.

Season 3 Changes
This is a tricky area, but I believe the changes are more disadvantageous to Teemo. Let's first look at the numbers objectively.

General Changes

Quote:
Attack Damage has generally been made cheaper by roughly 5 to 10%
Attack Speed has generally been made more expensive by roughly 20%
Firstly, this means that attack damage bruiser tops become even more viable and the opportunity cost of using Teemo increases even more. This also means that it takes much longer and more money to build Teemo's kit (which focuses on AS and AP). I have personally tried using Teemo and I have found that it takes far longer to get Malady, when the opposing top already has a huge advantage with phage and second tier boots. The nerfs to Malady (intial bonus damage and magic penetration) make it even harder for Teemo to gain an early game advantage (which used to be his main advantage).

New Items?

Quote:
Liandry's and Ruunan's Hurricane
Subjectively speaking, it might seem that these are hugely beneficial to Teemo, but in real practice it is not.

Liandry's is far too expensive as an early Haunting Guise does not fit in Teemo's build. Also, it does not proc on Toxic Shot. It scales on current health, which means it is useless for shrooms when finishing enemies off (since their current health is already very low). It's damage is also reduced for AOE effects like shrooms.

Ruunan's Hurricane seems great at first because now Teemo can damage 3 targets at the same time. In practice though, the range of the other 2 bolts are so limited, that it's main purpose would be for farming (unless enemies are very clumped together), something Teemo is already good at. Getting this item would mean sacrificing shroom power (from AP items) or defense (from items like GA). His range is also so low, that he risks getting instantly destroyed once he joins a teamfight.

Competitive Usage

You would naturally expect Teemo would be used competitively if he really was so OP as to warrant these huge nerfs. This is not the case. When was the last time you saw Teemo played competitively? Teemo is completely unviable at higher ranks and in competitive levels. He is considered a very niche pick, and his role would be to split push top lane the whole game because he is useless in teamfights.

I rarely play as Teemo, as whenever I pick Teemo, I get flamed by my team. These proposed nerfs would make an already unviable champion even worse (to pre-rework Eve status). In effect, this is like "deleting" Teemo from the game (I thought you guys were only joking).

Riot, I appreciate how you are looking to make the game more balanced, but I believe that the proposed nerfs make no sense, as Teemo is objectively already quite weak, especially after the Season 3 changes. My suggestion is to undo the nerfs, and wait and see if Teemo gets any success on higher levels, before considering any changes. If changes are to be done, they should be less extreme, and other compensating changes should be considered (such as improved CDR to compensate for nerfed shrooms).


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Sophia1999

Junior Member

12-12-2012

I agree with the OP, teemo should NOT be nerfed. I have carefully read through his argument and his case is very logical and valid. Season 3 has indeed indirectly reduced teemo's viability. Any further nerfs would just be taking it too far. I appreciate the objective, rather than emotional, discussion on this.

On another note, if they are gonna nerf teemo like this, they should at least offer a refund on his skins. I mean they release so many skins on this guy, and after everyone has bought them, they then "delete" him through these nerfs, and they expect us to buy skins for other champions? I feel cheated.
Come on Riot who are you kidding?


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HiFromBuddha

Senior Member

12-12-2012

The reason for the nerfs isn't actually because of Teemo's kit and his numbers, but rather the amount of itemization he got with the new patch. They released a whole bunch of on-hit and AP items that all benefit Teemo way too much. He can essentially build AD, AP and on-hit in the same build and still be useful and deal a decent of damage, especially with the inclusion of Liandry's Torment which makes up for any damage lost from not building full AP.

Still, the nerfs are a bit harsh as it's essentially addressing the problems of Runaan's and Liandry's. It basically means that it's being nerfed because it synergises well with those two items, which brings up the question of him not always wanting to build those two items.

Edit: I read the thread again, but more carefully. I completely ignored a whole section of his post which in the end made me feel like an idiot from how valid his points are. After the thorough read, I believe he should just be left as he is. The items are still relatively new, so we may have another 'Jayce incident', and not realise that there is currently a very underappreciated item that in reality is amazing on Teemo. While buffs may be necessary, we don't want to find some secret that eventually gets Teemo nerfed into oblivion.


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harry13aals

Senior Member

12-12-2012

It's the perfect example of a QQ nerf instead of one based on actual champion strength. "New S3 items made him OP" - then where are the Riven/Talon/Urgot/Veigar/LB nerfs? If the on-hit items were too much, nerf his E by itself. Liandry's + mushroom? If you're balancing Teemo around getting that item, you're pretty much forcing all Teemos to build Liandry's in order to not be playing an underpowered champ.


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Xoripan

Senior Member

12-12-2012

teemo's shroom had been nerfed so many times


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Monobrow

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Senior Member

12-12-2012

HotsnotGG sounds better.


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M3TASH33P

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry13aals View Post
It's the perfect example of a QQ nerf instead of one based on actual champion strength. "New S3 items made him OP" - then where are the Riven/Talon/Urgot/Veigar/LB nerfs? If the on-hit items were too much, nerf his E by itself. Liandry's + mushroom? If you're balancing Teemo around getting that item, you're pretty much forcing all Teemos to build Liandry's in order to not be playing an underpowered champ.
urgot nerfs... where the hell were you in the last 6 months

burn teemo lover!


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Sophia1999

Junior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry13aals View Post
It's the perfect example of a QQ nerf instead of one based on actual champion strength. "New S3 items made him OP" - then where are the Riven/Talon/Urgot/Veigar/LB nerfs? If the on-hit items were too much, nerf his E by itself. Liandry's + mushroom? If you're balancing Teemo around getting that item, you're pretty much forcing all Teemos to build Liandry's in order to not be playing an underpowered champ.
Yep, I agree with you. They are nerfing teemo based on QQ's and emotions NOT on facts. Objectively, teemo is already pretty weak. I would have expected a buff, rather than a nerf, so that we can see more Teemo's in competitive games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFromBuddha View Post
The reason for the nerfs isn't actually because of Teemo's kit and his numbers, but rather the amount of itemization he got with the new patch... especially with the inclusion of Liandry's Torment which makes up for any damage lost from not building full AP.
Read the OP, he explains why Liandry's is completely useless on Teemo. The season 3 changes actually made him much worse because of the higher AS prices and Malady nerfs.


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Bergtau

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Senior Member

12-12-2012

Hurricane is really good, actually. What word do you play in where there aren't a couple of enemies bunched, especially during initiation? Often they will have an initiator go in with their melee following up and Hurricane lets you hit both. The range is actually pretty big, too, given that you can cleave all 3 melee minions when they are running down in single file before they form up into a row.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia1999 View Post
Read the OP, he explains why Liandry's is completely useless on Teemo. The season 3 changes actually made him much worse because of the higher AS prices and Malady nerfs.
Malady nerfs? You mean 5% AS and 2 MR per stack in exchange for a 10% AP scale on the damage? That's 50 extra damage per hit fully built as AP.


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M3TASH33P

Senior Member

12-12-2012

oracle was nerfed to hell too, making his shrooms wayyyy better... dont forget that


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