Morellonomicon

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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFatalFlaw View Post
If you are playing a long range poke champion like Brand or Lux, you will want to optimize mana regeneration to stay in lane longer. While Moerllonomicon does boost 12 m/5, this falls short of the 15 m/5 of Athene's in addition to the percentage based regen of the chalice. Coupled with CDR and Magic resist clearly edges the Athene's over the Morellonomicon. You would also want to add a Liandry's Torment to the list as it adds spell penetration and the burning is bonus damage. After that you need to add survivability to the equation. Either more health, armor or spell vamp increase survivability Morellonomicon lacks all 3 of these choice states, so you look at Deathfire Grasp, Rylai's, ROA, WOTA or Zhonya's. In the event that you build all 6 items, you would be looking for either more ability power, or spell penetration, once again Morellonomicon gets over looked. In this typical build, you would need to replace one of your core items with Morellonomicon. The obvious choice is to replace Athene's Unholy grail, netting you a lose of 3 m/5 and percentage based regen in order to gain 15 ability power and grievous wounds under 40%.
There's a lot here but I just want to add a couple points; I'm still curious about your overall reply.

I commented before that 'laners' would be the sort to prefer this; that would include 'pokers' such as Brand or Lux; two in particular who don't have the resource sustain that other laners have. I'll ignore Lux as she was originally designed as a support, and has only come to see play as a damage dealer due to controversial circumstances. I'll also dismiss Brand as a mage specifically designed to have this challenge, in exchange for higher damage potential. However, I'll take them as an archetype, and talk about laning mages who have mana problems; say Fiddlesticks for example.

There is something I think is important to note here, and that is that the Morellonomicon falls in line with Grail and Liandra's (and arguably Will & RoA) as predominantly laning-phase items. That is, items that are most useful during the laning phase of trades, pokes, harassment, farming, etc. Also note that each of these items are fairly expensive, averaging at about 3000 gold, except Will at ~2000 gold. In your final build, you're probably not going to have more than one of these items, if any of them, because teamfights often revolve around focusing down targets as quickly as possible, moving on to the next one, and repeating until your objective is in the clear. Teamfights generally do not involve laning, though poke comps did see some good play in the S2 Championships.

So the real question to ask here is which of these 'laning' items, if any, do you want or need to fit your champion and playstyle. You'll obviously take Grail, despite the inferior CDR & inferior AP if you want better mana sustain and defense. You'll take Liandra's for the passive since the standard 20 - 30 MP is usually enough to deal with the standard 30 MR, but you may also be considering the HP it brings; you're clearly giving up any semblance of sustain as it provides none. Taking this on Brand would be a case of min-maxing, and interestingly, the 15% to 20% bonus hp damage you can deal might also counter regen or sustain just as well as Morello's. Will's niche I'm sure is obvious; taking it forfeits mana regen (and damaging passives) for some really nice spellvamp. Rod of Ages is usually taken for its scaling into the late game, as the sustain is outstripped by Morello's for mana, and by Will for health, but Ryze will always love it for the mana.

I guess the bottom line is whether you want mana-sustain for more spammability - that could overcome sustain if properly employed; or whether you can overcome it with % burn for more damage, albeit at less frequent intervals; whether you want to simply mirror with Will, or whether you want to even the odds with Morello's. Of course, you can always niche-pick or ignore it (rushing deathcap or w/e) depending on your champion. But I think it's in this light that Morello's needs to be examined. If it proc'd Grievous all the time, wouldn't that be OP? It would be a must-take, as it immediately negates (or at least greatly hampers) an important part of your opponent's kit - and that's anybody with a hp pot really.

As it stands, Morello's is a free, perpetual, but conditional Ignite, except the bonus true damage. Anyway, you've shown a thoughtful approach to this, so I'll look forward to your follow-up thoughts.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-13-2012

EDIT: I was incorrect to suggest that Will makes a substantial sacrifice of AP when compared to the alternatives discussed.


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a Fatality

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Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
There's a lot here but I just want to add a couple points; I'm still curious about your overall reply.

I commented before that 'laners' would be the sort to prefer this; that would include 'pokers' ... laning mages who have mana problems; say Fiddlesticks for example.

As it stands, Morello's is a free, perpetual, but conditional Ignite, except the bonus true damage. Anyway, you've shown a thoughtful approach to this, so I'll look forward to your follow-up thoughts.
Sorry, I'm paraphrasing what is important. You are absolutely correct, Morellonomicon is intended as a laning phase item, however it was intended to be the casting counterpart to the executioners calling. Morellonomicon would be a great item on those poking mages if you did not have a far superior choice in Athene's. The only advantage that morellonomicon gives you is the grievous wounds application, and that is completely worthless unless your opponent is below 40%. Now allow to restate that entire purpose of this post,

High sustain champions such as vladimir, swain, ahri, fiddlesticks, morgana, even a Cho'gath are the champions that would be hampered the most from grievous wounds, and yest most of these champions have an extremely easy time to remain well above 40% health given the constant sustain during laning phase. While I appreciate the attempt to justify Morellonomicon as a viable item, it falls short of it's intended purpose in both aspects of countering high sustain champions and it is a far weaker counterpart to the vastly superior (and cheaper) attack damage alternate.

I ask for only one small change to this item, remove this pointless passive ability and return the vastly superior Morello's evil tome, or keep the Morellonomicon but remove the restriction of below 40% and reduce the grievous wounds to 1.5 seconds.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-16-2012

Morellonomicon is far more effective in two scenarios than Morello's Evil Tome.

First is against someone who's relying on sustain heavily; if you out-burst their sustain, then while you're running your cooldowns they can't heal. The second, most notable, is in team fights. Yeah, sure, against the enemy caster who may or may not decide to buy MR, it's a tossup in usefulness. But when you hit the entire enemy team with AoE burst like Ziggs, Brand or Zyra, you're going to love making it impossible for healing to take place in a team fight, making it impossible for them to keep in long-term combat, either forcing them to retreat or killing them.


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Vuther

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFatalFlaw View Post
When Morello's evil tome first entered, it was a staple item for AP carries.
Pretty sure that was never.


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JeanieYuss

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

I'm pretty sure you guys are forgetting that Morello's still builds out of Kage's Pick, and Athene's does not.

If i'm playing Support Lux, I rush Kage's, then boots,followed by Philo, followed by Sightstone. I upg to CDR boots, and Morello's for early and Cheap CDR. Upg Philo to Elisia's Miracle, and upg Sightstone.

I like to take CV on Lux, so i don't need the Twin Shadows. (Elisia's miracles makes CV even better). If you still got money burning a hole in your pocket, get a Deathcap.

Athene's would be way to expensive for this build, and would slow down my Sightstone, beings I have to get the chalice for the mana regen. Not getting early sightstone, makes it so I have to buy even more wards, which slows down my build even more.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

12-17-2012

I like this item tbh.

It's really nice on certain supports since it builds out of pick.

You can use it on soraka nami or sona and spread the HiV with your AoEs.

It counters healing, spell vamp, regeneration, and life steal really well.


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a Fatality

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Alright, the math is far to extensive to compute for every possible match up. I'll use the caster with the most sustain through out the laning phase.

Vladimir drains 90/125/160/195/230 (+0.6*AP) and heals 15/25/35/45/55 (+0.25*AP).

with a given buying price of 2200g and assuming that Vlad has equivalent farm he'll have a hextech revolver and a haunting guise. It would take a total of 17.6 minion waves to reach the required 2200 gold given perfect farming. Each wave spawns every 30 seconds and with ambient gold rates of 16 gold every ten seconds at the very earliest based on perfect farm you would need 8 full minutes to hit 2200 gold. that places the game at the ten minute mark, and each champion would be a minimum of level 8.

At level 8 Vlad has 70 bonus ability power, and is able to heal for 81 health from Transfusion without any stacks from tides of blood. This has a 4 second cool down. In addition Vlad gains 98 bonus HP. Vlad would have a total health pool of 1178. for Grievous wounds to trigger Vlad needs to be brought to 471 health.

Assuming that you plan to counter Vlad with Morellonomicon on Cassiopeia, you will have
75 ability power, 12 m/5, and 20% cdr. Cassie has 980 health, and 650 mana with a total regen of 25.1 m/5. Noxious blast will have cooldown of 2.4 seconds, Twin fangs will have a cool down of 4 second .7 if target is poisoned. Twin fangs will do 231 damage, Noxious blast will do 160 damage and Miasma would do 36 damage per tick.

To trigger grievous wounds, Cassie needs to hit Vlad for 707 damage with out Vlad using any of his spells. Further more, Vlad simple steps back and transfuses a few minions to stay at full health. This merely demonstrates the uselessness of the passive. Cassie must commit completely to the attack or Vlad will slip away and heal back to full. Should Riot change this item to it's vastly more useful incarnation, Cassie simply decides when grievous is applied by using the active portion.

Additionally, there is no reasonable justification for the massive nerf to what was a fantastic item. The executioners calling was buffed to apply grievous wounds on every auto attack while Morellonomicon was changed to only be effective after the target is already in a precarious position. In any regard, I'd love to hear from a riot on this.


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a Fatality

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
I like this item tbh.

It's really nice on certain supports since it builds out of pick.

You can use it on soraka nami or sona and spread the HiV with your AoEs.

It counters healing, spell vamp, regeneration, and life steal really well.
This is the only feasible application. Trying to use Morellonomicon as an efficient means of reducing an enemy teams ability to heal is a futile attempt. If you use Brand, Ziggs or Zyra or any other AOE caster during a team fight, the grievous wounds has such an insignificant effect as you must bring a target below 40% in a team fight. The goal of those AOE casters is to drop as many of the opponents to critically low levels as quickly as possible so the fight is won. Morellonomicon would be useful in this regard if Athene's wasn't far more useful in consistently keeping your caster full of mana. A grievously wounded target from Morellonomicon would quickly become a dead target in a team fight as they are below 40%. That's a 12% mana return you lose because you picked Morellonomicon. In addition you miss out on the additional mana regeneration and the added survivability that Athene's gives with it's magic resistance.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFatalFlaw View Post
Alright, the math is far to extensive to compute for every possible match up.

. . .


To trigger grievous wounds, Cassie needs to hit Vlad for 707 damage with out Vlad using any of his spells. Further more, Vlad simple steps back and transfuses a few minions to stay at full health. This merely demonstrates the uselessness of the passive. Cassie must commit completely to the attack or Vlad will slip away and heal back to full. Should Riot change this item to it's vastly more useful incarnation, Cassie simply decides when grievous is applied by using the active portion.

Additionally, there is no reasonable justification for the massive nerf to what was a fantastic item. The executioners calling was buffed to apply grievous wounds on every auto attack while Morellonomicon was changed to only be effective after the target is already in a precarious position. In any regard, I'd love to hear from a riot on this.
When you put it like that, it sounds like it's working as intended. Remember that mages tend to "chunk", while auto-attackers tend to deal less damage per hit (at least, during laning phase). This really cuts to the heart of the difference between casters and attackers. Vladimir, and other high-sustain champs, are supposed to require full committal - or at least more than a half-hearted poke - to best. Greatly raising the cap on when Morello procs would ruin these champions, because their main edge is now completely eliminated, while Grievous Wounds is intenede to mitigate that edge. It would be like creating an item that eliminates all armor (and/or mr) for 1.5 seconds: no more Rammus or Malphite. Items are not supposed to exist that completely eliminate the advantages of abilities or even other items. Armor doesn't completely counter AD, and Arpen doesn't completely counter armor. So, Morello's is supposed to be a strategic choice; one you take specifically when faced with a Vlad (because it really does work against him), unless you think you'll do better taking Grail, or Liandry's, or Will. For the record, a smart Vlad seeing Morello's on an enemy caster will rush Visage instead of Guise and/or Revolver. On further consideration, I think the passive on Morello's is pretty solid where it is; maybe it just needs something added, or maybe the normal stats need to be buffed. But considering the difference in mechanics and playstyle of casters vs attackers, I think that the items in question are fine.


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