Jungle scaling in S3, and tank junglers

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Bainer

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Member

12-12-2012

As a main role jungler, I've been messing around with various champions and builds. In general I'm very happy with the updates.

One thing that feels imbalanced to me is the scaling of large jungle monsters and how hard it is for tank junglers to kill them. One of the goals of the new jungle was to give more gold to junglers, but I have found that with tank junglers, it takes tooo long to clear the jungle. Especially after 20 minutes.

I've found that tank junglers end up with much less gold than before the patch for 2 reasons.
1) Reduced availability and viability of G/10 items. I have no problem with this change and I actually love it. But the result is that you have to get your gold somewhere else.
2)Scaling of large jungle monsters. They take so long to kill for tanks that if you evaluate the gold/minute you actually find a reduced gold income.

I'm able to adapt to this. I accept and in some ways welcome this. But the inability to get real farm as a tank jungler limits the options in the jungle.

I was unhappy with the way season 2 jungle was going. The game encouraged support tanks with G/10 items. But now the game really encourages AD damage dealers to jungle because they can clear the jungle much much faster and still make it to team fights. And honestly you HAVE to clear the jungle frequently to keep up with laners. Tanks will end up being weaker than season 2, by the 25 minute mark due to lack of gold. Attempts to farm the jungle results in missed team fights.

The solution that seems most obvious to me is to adjust some stats on Spirit of the Ancient Golem. Maybe adding an extra 5-10% damage to jungle monsters but removing some armor and/or health from would be a solution.

Any other opinions or comments?


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Autocthon

Senior Member

12-12-2012

What champs and what are you building?

Also tank junglers are generally designed as gankers and not farmers so a slower clear (and less jungle gold) should be offset by rapid and effective ganking in general.

Playing Naut/Mao I'm not losing any real time or gold, they have efficient clears. Other tank jungles I'm less familiar with.


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Bainer

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12-12-2012

I play Cho'gath, Naut, and Amumu. I don't dare try Shen or Rammus as things are right now.

I generally build as the game needs, but rarely do I build any damage into my tank builds. With how armor and magic pen works right now you have to be very tanky to survive a fight. I will generally build 20-30% CDR through Frozen heart, Shurelya's, Randuin's, or Spirit visage.

Naut, Mao(probably my next champ), and Cho'gath to some degree are good gankers. But here are a few counter points
- Generally you don't get the kill. Tanks don't do a ton of damage. Often they don't even want to be the person with the kill. You want your AP or AD carry to get them.
-Assist gold isn't good enough, you could get equal gold to an assist clearing 1 more jungle camp.
-Tanks that can actually clear jungle decently (again, Naut, Mao, and Amumu) have to choose between mana shortage and speed between levels 5-12. Even when building mana regen.

Even with all that said, if you look back to season 2, the "strongest" junglers were ones who relied on G/10. Others such as Shaco, Kha'zix, and Diana needed kills to keep up. In the case that they didn't get kills they fell behind hard. This is the same case as what I'm talking about here. Now the tanks require a strong early game, or else fall behind the high damage junglers who can really get maximum benefit from the jungle changes. Now Nocturne, Olaf, Darius, and others that build damage really shine because they can clear quickly, which enables more ganks and will still have respectable, even GOOD gold income.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Ambient gold was buffed by 60% of a HoG and Philo still exists, ignoring that an individual camp is more gold than previously.


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Vuther

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Shen has the pretty big advantage that he doesn't run out of health after popping 4 potions and clearing to 4 with the machete.


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Bainer

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12-12-2012

Philo stone got nerfed from 15hp/5 to 7hp/5. If you are getting spirit stone, philo stone isn't worth much unless you really want Shurelya's.

Ambient gold increase is given to everyone, so it isn't really relevant for the discussion of how hard it is to clear large jungle monsters.

Also, it has been shown that there isn't much, if any, actual increase in gold gained in the jungle, especially prior to 11 minutes.
Sources:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2815069
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNTcR7b_tB0
The Youtube video shows Shyvana who is a manaless farming champ, so it would be even worse for a tank.

The idea that you can just G/10 your way through the jungle anymore is old and most likely won't be viable in season 3. This leave tanks with slow jungle farm, and drops them significantly behind damage dealing junglers.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

12-12-2012

This is one of the reasons I've stopped playing the tankier junglers. If I'm gonna jungle now it's gonna be someone like Shyvana, Mundo, noc, udyr, etc who can rip the jungle to pieces and beat enemy junglers in a 1v1 in the jungle.

Tank junglers just really aren't that good anymore.


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Jungle Rammus

Senior Member

12-12-2012

R.I.P Rammus


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Onimus Terlain

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Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBM View Post
R.I.P Rammus
He was dead in season 2.


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Guaire

Senior Member

12-12-2012

I tend to go for a heavier damage build on my tank junglers and have few problems with clearing.
Take an Amumu with RoA, Rylais, Abyssal Scepter, Sunfire, and Liandry's and Boots (merc/tabi) at full build.
you have a good chunk of HP (with the ArPen/MPen changes, its arguably better than resistances), but aren't totally scimping on the resistance. Meanwhile, you are doing a MASSIVE amount of AoE Damage. Clear times are almost instant, ganks are terrifying, and teamfight presence is amazing (if you catch their whole team with your ult, by yourself you can easily do 800-1000 damage to everyone caught in it before they can react. Very Scary.


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