How to counter Black Cleaver

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eBlossom

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Thread got closed again.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2888573

Edit: Please, please, please read through this whole thread before you post or vote. These are all legitimate and viable counter arguments to the Black Cleaver nerfs.

Black Cleaver is quite expensive, by the time this item is built, most carries have their core item built as well. (outdamage counterargument)

Assassins have to come in after initiation to instagib carries. Carries can position accordingly and the team can save some of their cooldowns to wait for an assassin to show up before they stunlock them, potentially wasting the assassins "escape". (teamfight counterplay)

In the event of a 1v1, (which shouldn't happen if you know they have assassin champions), use your gap closers to counter theirs (gap closer counterargument), which either allows you to escape, or keep the ranged distance from where you continuously kite them. (kiting counterargument)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryjerry1
The flat armor penetration is stackable in its current state though, which is where more of the problem comes from. It makes armor completeely useless.
First of all, armor is not rendered completely useless, because it reduces damage by a %.

Secondly, most champions who build flat penetration are melee champions, meaning they are prone to kiting.

Third, if these champions only stack Black Cleaver for its stats, another melee bruiser building tankier will always outsurvive the person stacking Black Cleaver.

Lastly, this tankier bruiser's build is much more cost efficient and cheaper than a 4-5 Black Cleaver build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasako
leave the stats the same, make them unstackable, problem solved
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin
BC has actually pretty normal statistics on lolking.
15% pick rate (per champ) and a 61% win rate.
Old BC had a 70% win rate.
Triforce and BT get a 61% win rate and also a 15% pick rate.

BC is a bit OP (30% -> 25% and it is fine). But not as much as people think.

and stacking it is bad. It is like i would stack Sunfire capes, cause i want more HP and Armor. I get HP and Armor but if i would get a Warmogs + another Armor item instead, i would get more.

one BC is a bit OP.
4 BC is still an "ok" build, but there are way better ones with more stats and strength for the same amount of gold.


And the passive can't be stacked. It triggers more often per hit, but it will only stack up to 4 times. A decent champ gets 2-3 stacks onto all important targets with one BC. A good champ can get up to 4 onto most targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin
No good team in the last weeks stacked it. Why? cause it is not a good way to use that item.
If you get 3 different champs that can build it, then build it on both of them once. But don't build it twice on once champ (twice is actually still ok, 3-4 times is not good).

I always give people that build:
BC + BT + Warmogs + LW + Brutalizer. Costs as much as 4 BC.
+15 AD, +250 HP, +~50 HP reg, +18% LS, +35% ArPen
VS
+20% CDR, + 30 ArPen

I could also take away the AD and some ArPen and get HP + CDR instead. A build with one BC is not only stronger overall, but also more flexible and way better to optimize for every situation. That's why no pro team stacks BC on one champ.


Why would you make the Armor or HP on Sunfire cape, when stacking it is already worse than other options?
It is the same with BC.
they could make the passive shred unique so that it stacks slower. But even then, it wouldn't change much (at least not for people that can do math).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhadeonyc
Is it not way over the the top it is where it has to be. BC is supposed to be superior to LW because is more expensive, Yea the Unique effect was necessary but not a nerf to the stats of the item...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThEKiD96
In that case why not nerf the trinity force? It gives a bit of everything Solotops and certain carries need. The fact that the item gives a bit of everything isnt an issue. The fact that they stack and that 4 out of 5 people rush it on each team
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaria
It's not so much just black cleaver that's too strong but it plus armor being made more difficult to come by and the new penetration formula all together make it a little obscene. Having both percentage and flat armor pen on a single item with the new formula is a bad call as well

Also, cooldown reduction is just not a stat that should be easy to come by for attack damage based characters. They have really strong auto attacks to fill in the gaps.
Nowadays we have 40% cdr riven's bouncing around unable to spam skills faster than they come off cooldown and having no worries about armor reducing her killing potential and the whole point of her strength being the empowered auto attacks between skills is just gone
If a Riven has 40% CDR without blue buff, that Riven is building sub-optimally. All 4 of her spells scale with AD, and stacking BC does not give you a huge amount of AD. A plausible build on Riven, which wasn't the "best" per se, but was super optimal if you were able to farm the gold for it was Boots, 4 BT, GA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin
ArPen got nerfed by 20%, just like Armor (Armor got actually only 20% more expensive).
% ArPen got nerfed.
The new formula doesn't work with BC, cause ArRed was always counted before ArPen.
The new formula only helps you when you really stack flat ArPen + % ArPen (8% mastery is not really much of a difference for the change from S2 to S3). So it only works with LW + flat pen really well (and that was always the thing. the old way was bad for LW and flat pen stacking. So the new way only helps LW + flat pen stacking and that doesn't happen too often).
The only thing that should be changed is the passive stacking component.

Here's the continuation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatPullDown View Post
I haven't played much since the patch so haven't experienced too much BC but from what I have it seems pretty powerful. Just because something can be countered doesn't mean its not OP. If buying one item forces the other team to spend thousands on items to counter or to completely change their team fight strategy it is too powerful aka overpowered
A chainvest is 720 gold, Black Cleaver is 3000 gold. You can buy 4 chainvests for the price of a Black Cleaver.
And also, teamfight strategy has always been to take out the most out of position carry first, and then move on to the next highest priority target while protecting your carries. For instance, the infamous Froggen teamfight call is a perfect example of this.

What the above point is trying to address is that for the price of stacking Black Cleaver, I can counter it by building better defenses and damage items for the same price.


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The Canadian Kid

Senior Member

12-10-2012

k ill buy 5 black cleavers you buy 20 chain vests, btw i have 100% armor pen


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Obama

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

It got closed because no one agrees with your horrible points?

Its an overpowered item
The nerfs on the PBE are not the only nerfs in store for it, Riot confirmed that they are exploring more ways to tone it down
No, Armor does not counter this item. The amount of armor you need to build will just do to waste if you do not have offensive stats.

And did you just suggest that we buy 4 chain vests to counter it?


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Canadian Kid View Post
k ill buy 5 black cleavers you buy 20 chain vests, btw i have 100% armor pen
no youre not. especially since cleaver is not stackable anymore with the next patch. well, you can, but more than one cleaver wont do anything for you.


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aahdin

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Canadian Kid View Post
k ill buy 5 black cleavers you buy 20 chain vests, btw i have 100% armor pen
You don't know how black cleaver works, do you?

Edit:

A lot of people in here don't know how it works.

With extra black cleavers the max armor pen % doesn't go up, it's still 30%, the only difference is that it stacks faster.


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eBlossom

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Canadian Kid View Post
k ill buy 5 black cleavers you buy 20 chain vests, btw i have 100% armor pen
You're not getting the point.

5 Black Cleavers cost 15000 Gold.

With that, I can buy a bunch of defensive items, and other damaging items and outdamage and outtank you.


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Genspirit

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Black Cleaver is quite expensive

^ LOLLOLOLOL

its cheap as **** what are u talking about?


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eBlossom

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genspirit View Post
Black Cleaver is quite expensive

^ LOLLOLOLOL

its cheap as **** what are u talking about?
Bloodthirster is the same price, provides sustain, better damage, and has overall higher DPS than black cleaver.

Sunfire cape provides armor, health, and AoE magic damage, for less than the price of Black Cleaver.

Last Whisper has more AD than Black Cleaver, has Black Cleavers % penetration effect right from the start, and costs 700 gold cheaper.


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

everyone thinks cleaver is op without data to back it up and compare it with different builds. just by looking at the stats. people say it on stream, more people build it. more people build it because so many people build it.

everyone starts complaining, because everyone builds it.

yes, stacking makes the item too strong, but a single cleaver on an ad caster is not.


and even then, stacking a cleaver with a ghostblade or last whisper is much more cost efficient than stacking it with another cleaver on 90% of the champions who do it.

ghostblade has better base stats than a second cleaver (higher flat armor pen and cdr), if you already have one cleaver passive, and is like 1k gold cheaper. (depending on how long you keep the avarice blade).

yeah, ghostblade doesnt have health, but for 1k you can get a lot of hp.


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Krampus Claus

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neragic View Post
Thread got closed again.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2888573

Black Cleaver is quite expensive, by the time this item is built, most carries have their core item built as well. (outdamage counterargument)

Assassins have to come in after initiation to instagib carries. Carries can position accordingly and the team can save some of their cooldowns to wait for an assassin to show up before they stunlock them, potentially wasting the assassins "escape". (teamfight counterplay)

In the event of a 1v1, (which shouldn't happen if you know they have assassin champions), use your gap closers to counter theirs (gap closer counterargument), which either allows you to escape, or keep the ranged distance from where you continuously kite them. (kiting counterargument)


First of all, armor is not rendered completely useless, because it reduces damage by a %.

Secondly, most champions who build flat penetration are melee champions, meaning they are prone to kiting.

Third, if these champions only stack Black Cleaver for its stats, another melee bruiser building tankier will always outsurvive the person stacking Black Cleaver.

Lastly, this tankier bruiser's build is much more cost efficient and cheaper than a 4-5 Black Cleaver build.








If a Riven has 40% CDR without blue buff, that Riven is building sub-optimally. All 4 of her spells scale with AD, and stacking BC does not give you a huge amount of AD. A plausible build on Riven, which wasn't the "best" per se, but was super optimal if you were able to farm the gold for it was Boots, 4 BT, GA.


The only thing that should be changed is the passive stacking component.

Here's the continuation:



A chainvest is 720 gold, Black Cleaver is 3000 gold. You can buy 4 chainvests for the price of a Black Cleaver.

What the above point is trying to address is that for the price of stacking Black Cleaver, I can counter it by building better defenses and damage items for the same price.
Is k, people don't understand that they didn't lose to black cleaver, they lost to fed assassins who used their gold advantage to build more items.


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