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5% reduction to Black Cleaver wont really change anything

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Talamare

Senior Member

12-08-2012

The main reason you did the ArP changes was to reduce the effect of penetration, but since you added another % reduction, it negated any nerfs you did

S2 - 40% + 10% = 46% pen
S3 - 35% + 30% + 8% = 58% pen
S3 PBE - 35% + 25% + 8% = 55% pen

That percentage is still far too high

I understand that you also are reducing the amount of flat pen, but again compared to S2 since your own % pen is not working against it, it still gives you much higher numbers. and this is completely ignoring the fact that armor is also more expensive

You need to reduce Black Cleaver to 5% per stack, its a team wide effect so even at 20% reduction it is still very powerful

S3 BC 5% = 35% + 20% + 8% = 52% Pen



Edit Math why I say Pen was nerfed in S3 from S2
Pen in S3, Not counting BC, is now 35% + 8% = 40% (lowered from 46%)
Flat Pen has also been reduced from 1.66 per Mark to 1.28 (from 15 to 11)
Also Mastery has been reduced from 6 to 5

This puts us from 46% + 21 to 40% + 16

Target with 100 armor is reduced to = s2-43 s3-44
Target with 150 armor is reduced to = s2-70 s3-74
Target with 200 armor is reduced to = s2-97 s3-104


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Talamare

Senior Member

12-08-2012

To make things more complex, I would say that the 8% mastery for physical damage should also be reduced to 5%

Physical damage grows much easier than Magical damage, and Runic Bulwark provides everyone with a ton of MR, but the same isnt true for Physical damage, You also get more ArP from Runes and Masteries than you do for Magic Pen. Finally Black Cleaver is a major game changer

With my 2 changes for physical damage (5% BC per stack and 5% ArP for the Mastery)
Physical Penetration will become 50% (35% + 20% + 5%)
Magical Penetration will become 40% (35% + 8%)


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Lisztomaniac

Senior Member

12-08-2012

no, the main reason they did the ArP changes was to make it better, not by itself but taking new armor values into account, it was never intended as a nerf it was always a buff.


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Talamare

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Lisztomaniac:
no, the main reason they did the ArP changes was to make it better, not by itself but taking new armor values into account, it was never intended as a nerf it was always a buff.


It was fully intended as a nerf

The primary goal was to remove the fact that getting % Pen reduced the effect of Flat Pen


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Lisztomaniac

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Talamare:
It was fully intended as a nerf

The primary goal was to remove the fact that getting % Pen reduced the effect of Flat Pen


no, sorry to say it but either we are talking about diferent things or youre wrong.

before the patch geting flat pen or reduc would reduce the effect of % pen or reduc, so getting both would make % less effective, but after the patch getting both actually makes it stronger, since now its the other way around, im not sure how you can see that as a nerf.

also: getting % didnt reduce the effect of flat pen, it was the other way around, flat pen would reduce the effect of %.

detailed explanation:

im gonna use pen as a example, before the patch flat would come into play before %, now lets say you have 40% pen and 10 flat pen, against a target with 200 armor it would go like this:

200-10flat=190...190-40%=114

the % efectivenes was equal to 76 armor on this case

now after the patch:

200-40%=120 and 120-10=110

the efectivenes of % is equal to 80 armor on the new values

as you see the % values are stronger this way than the old way. it was always intended as a buff, to make AD caster and assassins more viable, riot even said it themselves cant really prove it because im lazy to find it but i believe it was xypherous.


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DUDE BRO

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Pretty sure this was all due to some tanks being too hard to take down, and basically securing victories for their teams.

All defensive items were made more expensive, while offensive items were made cheaper. The heavy defensive items were removed, and more offensive-defensive items were added.

I'm pretty sure they wanted to increase all penetration across the board, to avoid tanks being able to become invincible and just hold entire teams down.

TL;DR: Pretty sure Riot intends high penetration and low defensive items, to make the game overall more offensively played by bruisers and tanks as well.


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Albireo

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
TL;DR: Pretty sure Riot intends high penetration and low defensive items, to make the game overall more offensively played by bruisers and tanks as well.


I'm sure they don't want to see full teams stacking only pen items in order to win.


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Talamare

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Lisztomaniac:
no, sorry to say it but either we are talking about diferent things or youre wrong.

before the patch geting flat pen or reduc would reduce the effect of % pen or reduc, so getting both would make % less effective, but after the patch getting both actually makes it stronger, since now its the other way around, im not sure how you can see that as a nerf.

also: getting % didnt reduce the effect of flat pen, it was the other way around, flat pen would reduce the effect of %.

detailed explanation:

im gonna use pen as a example, before the patch flat would come into play before %, now lets say you have 40% pen and 10 flat pen, against a target with 200 armor it would go like this:

200-10flat=190...190-40%=114

the % efectivenes was equal to 76 armor on this case

now after the patch:

200-40%=120 and 120-10=110

the efectivenes of % is equal to 80 armor on the new values

as you see the % values are stronger this way than the old way. it was always intended as a buff, to make AD caster and assassins more viable, riot even said it themselves cant really prove it because im lazy to find it but i believe it was xypherous.


Too sides of the same coin

200 - 10 = 190 * 40% = 114
200 * 40% = 120 - (10 * 40%) = 114

Proof that % was reducing flat
but either way its said its the same result, the one was making the other weaker

that was the point of the change


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ShadowlQQ

Senior Member

12-08-2012

w8 so u get both last wisper and black cleaver?


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Felza

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Talamare:
To make things more complex, I would say that the 8% mastery for physical damage should also be reduced to 5%

Physical damage grows much easier than Magical damage, and Runic Bulwark provides everyone with a ton of MR, but the same isnt true for Physical damage, You also get more ArP from Runes and Masteries than you do for Magic Pen. Finally Black Cleaver is a major game changer

With my 2 changes for physical damage (5% BC per stack and 5% ArP for the Mastery)
Physical Penetration will become 50% (35% + 20% + 5%)
Magical Penetration will become 40% (35% + 8%)


err.... No. Armor is much much cheaper to obtain compared to MR.
+ Natural armor growth ensures that you'll have more Armor than MR by around level 10
+ Not all champions have natural MR growth. the ones that do, grow half as fast as MR.
+ If you do understand AP is almost twice as cheap as AD and, AD needs to have AS, Crit, Pen to fully utilize its effectiveness.


On the note of AD casters, no, they won't every do as much damage as a burst AP mage (ryze or Veiger) because:
1) AD is twice as expensive as AP

2) their Ratios are only similar to AP ratios,

3) most of them are melee, unlike most mages who are ranged. Meaning they don't need to build other tankish items.

4) AP itemization offers defense along with Offense (Zhongya, Abyssal, Rylai etc.)

5)In order for AD casters to fully utilize their AUTO ATTACK which is the reason why AD is much more expensive, they need to build AS or Crit where they don't scale base on those stats, which mean they won't make making 100% full use of their AAs.

6) Armor is alot cheaper than MR

7) AP have ALOT of flat penetration options(including one that is build into a pair of boots), which means after the penetration math rework, they actually get much closer to true damage than AD casters at almost every point of the game.


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