Finally, A Non-Oversexualized "Cool" Female Champ

First Riot Post
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FirinUpMuhLazer

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT Samurai View Post
You literally cannot say that. Ashe was clearly designed with men in mind. You'd have to be numb to the whole of modern media to not see what I mean by this.

Do some women find Ashe to be a power fantasy? Almost certainly. But she was made to appeal to men before women.
How can you say such a completely relativity and culturally based idea is inherent and absolute?

You said yourself that some women may find Ashe to be a power fantasy. Are these woman unimportant and irrelevant? Does only the majority define what such a relative term as over-sexualization?

What about other cultures, besides here in America, do they matter to the discussion? Or is this only a discussion thats to be had about American women and their views of what is oversexualization?


As well, who is to say that this oversexualization is wrong? Someone tell me, is their something inherently immoral about wearing a bunny outfit? If my girlfriend puts on a bunny outfit, is she commiting a crime against females everywhere? Is it also wrong if I were to dress up in a bunny outfit? Am I also commiting a moral crime?


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Winterstride

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
You don't see the overlap between making something attractive to women and making something men view as a power fantasy?
I just plain don't see what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is that there has been a problem with female champions succumbing to the same treatment time and time again with this game, specifically when it comes to their attire and their poses. Stylus and company have admitted to this problem and are actively working on delivering the variety that we're asking for.

And when it comes to the male characters in this game it's not the same. Lee Sin wasn't made shirtless and given rippling muscles to appeal to women, he was designed that way because it's appealing to men. I'm not saying that women don't find him attractive but they were not who Riot had in mind when they conceived him. The same goes for nearly every male champ in the game, they're suffering from the same problem only with different symptoms, that this is what males prefer and Riot knows that.

You can pretend that Riot made him the way he is to try and snatch up all the money they could from the tiny percentage of female players they've accrued over the years if you like, you'd just be kidding yourself.


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Winterstride

Senior Member

12-07-2012

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Originally Posted by Wytsfs View Post
I disagree. In reality Riven has no thoughts or feelings, nor do any of the other champions. Nevermind that BBR's non canon and she never wore that outfit in the story; even if it was canon any opinion we were told that Riven had about that event would be as fake as Riven herself. It's just not comparable.

I also disagree about the effect these games have on the world. Certainly they'll impact more lives than you or I, but not the way you are asserting. People are better than that. All but a minority know the difference between fantasy and reality and that minority were affected by far more powerful influences than any game and likely well before they ever played.
You clearly put a lot less stock in fiction than I do. You also don't seem to think that when media is absolutely saturated with imagery like this that it will influence what people think on issues like this.

Like the other gentlemen before we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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Winterstride

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The MilkMān View Post
How can you say such a completely relativity and culturally based idea is inherent and absolute?

You said yourself that some women may find Ashe to be a power fantasy. Are these woman unimportant and irrelevant? Does only the majority define what such a relative term as over-sexualization?

What about other cultures, besides here in America, do they matter to the discussion? Or is this only a discussion thats to be had about American women and their views of what is oversexualization?


As well, who is to say that this oversexualization is wrong? Someone tell me, is their something inherently immoral about wearing a bunny outfit? If my girlfriend puts on a bunny outfit, is she commiting a crime against females everywhere? Is it also wrong if I were to dress up in a bunny outfit? Am I also commiting a moral crime?
I'm having trouble working out whether or not you're actually interested in any answer I can provide. When you seriously don't know the difference between institutionalized gender discrimination and your girlfriend's decision to wear an outfit in the privacy of your own home then I'm not sure how to react.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT Samurai View Post
I just plain don't see what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is that there has been a problem with female champions succumbing to the same treatment time and time again with this game, specifically when it comes to their attire and their poses. Stylus and company have admitted to this problem and are actively working on delivering the variety that we're asking for.

And when it comes to the male characters in this game it's not the same. Lee Sin wasn't made shirtless and given rippling muscles to appeal to women, he was designed that way because it's appealing to men. I'm not saying that women don't find him attractive but they were not who Riot had in mind when they conceived him. The same goes for nearly every male champ in the game, they're suffering from the same problem only with different symptoms, that this is what males prefer and Riot knows that.

You can pretend that Riot made him the way he is to try and snatch up all the money they could from the tiny percentage of female players they've accrued over the years if you like, you'd just be kidding yourself.
Attractiveness to women is appealing to men as a powerfantasy.

Attractiveness to men is appealing to women as a powerfantasy.

It may be helpful to attempt to understand what I have been posting about before responding to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
But the issue is in the discussion of what people in this thread term "sexualization", and how they determine exactly what they want to apply that word to.

And then to elucidate the cultural and personal bias that is tending people toward declaring the showing of any skin on females to be "sexualization".

You understand?

Finally, to indicate that sexy-making in design is not bad-- merely oversaturation of only one kind of sexiness (in this case, the stereotypical busty girl) is.

Some games go all the way on having every female be innocent and cute. Others have them as ethereal and untouchable. Some have everyone be Tank Girl.

Riot needs a mix of those and more.


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Winterstride

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Attractiveness to women is appealing to men as a powerfantasy.

Attractiveness to men is appealing to women as a powerfantasy.

It may be helpful to attempt to understand what I have been posting about before responding to it.
You can be condescending all you like, that doesn't make you any more intelligible. Because you're right, it would help to understand what you're talking about but I just don't get it.

Is English your native language?


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Arutairu

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingFrostbite View Post
Always confused when threads like these pop up. THey always seem to forget Kayle, Leona, Diana, Shyvana, and Lux but whatever.
Not sure about Lux anymore. She used to be, but now shes in dire need of a chiropractor.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT Samurai View Post
You can be condescending all you like, that doesn't make you any more intelligible. Because you're right, it would help to understand what you're talking about but I just don't get it.

Is English your native language?
It's simply quite clear that you haven't read the posts you reply to, and are off-the-cuff talking based upon one or two lines.

And then you get to be quite arrogant about it.

So to people who read (or wrote) the post, it can look very ironic because you may say things that actually agree with the post, but you don't realize it.


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FirinUpMuhLazer

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT Samurai View Post
I'm having trouble working out whether or not you're actually interested in any answer I can provide. When you seriously don't know the difference between institutionalized gender discrimination and your girlfriend's decision to wear an outfit in the privacy of your own home then I'm not sure how to react.

What discrimination is taking place by having a female in a bunny girl outfit, public or not, is what I'm asking.

My argument is their is nothing inherently wrong or discriminating about wearing a bunny costume. There is no institution that mandates that women everywhere must wear bunny costumes and that anyone who doesn't will face negative consequences. While there are surely plenty of localized examples of discrimination against all groups, an overarching broad generalization that costume wearing is discriminatory against any group is sheer fantasy of the most absurd sort. Even insulting racial stereotype costumes (which are apparantly a big enough deal to warrant posters at colleges) aren't inherently discriminating, though any action taken because of them could be construed as such.

Basically, at least in my mind, a bunny girl costumes isn't anymore inherently discriminatory against any group, then a gun is discriminatory against ethnic groups that have a higher death rate related to gun violence. There's likely to be correlation, but it sure as hell isn't causation in any way.


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Wytsfs

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT Samurai View Post
You clearly put a lot less stock in fiction than I do. You also don't seem to think that when media is absolutely saturated with imagery like this that it will influence what people think on issues like this.

Like the other gentlemen before we'll just have to agree to disagree.
As far as media that doesn't deal with real world events goes you are correct. After all, games are saturated with murder, but modern murder rates are lower than they were before video games existed and people who play video games do not seem to have a higher propensity for violence than those who don't play.