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Vi, the Piltover Enforcer - Feedback Thread

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OnlyPlayFemales

Junior Member

12-12-2012

3 hits are very easy to accomplish whether its laning phase, 1v1 or team fight and especially teamfight. I dont know why you have trouble with it. And no one said she can skip AD items, I said she can skip those anti-tank items like black cleaver and ruined king and free up item slots to invest in other items, while most other bruisers have a slot limited to BC etc. Also I never said to cast 2 E instantly, i said E and auto attack can be instantly cast after Q due to the slow.

Therefore, unless the target flash away, as long as Q land, you will have time to pull off at least an E and an auto attack, so W is basically guaranteed to proc.

What makes her W op is the utility (and superior ones) it offers and her ability to skip the "vs tank" decision to get something that offers more in damage or survivability.

For example, fiora has no stickiness either but she cannot skip the "vs tank" decision. Not to mention Vi has both anti-health and anti-armor (with attack speed as well).


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Fiora has 2 targeted non-ult (relevant for CD purposes) gap closers and an MS steroid.

Also, she should really get BC. Stacking ArPen is good, and she likes every single stat on the item. BorK isn't really an anti-tank item.


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Bambouské

Member

12-12-2012

I agree with people saying that removing denting blows from her ult hurts her gameplay, I mean she's designed to play as a combo champ. For me it's like removing hemorrage from Darius Q just because Q damage is high so by just landing it he is over-rewarded. Actually it's your fault if you don't avoid it.

I don't know if you really expect her to be a burst ad caster (as Darius or riven) or a sustained damage bruiser (as shyvana) but currently her kit makes me feel like you want people to have the choice but they are unfortunlately able to do both too early in the game. Why ? Well, people above already said it : W is a too powerful one point spell.

I really think that W should have a smoother evolution (including an armor pen evolution) so players have to make a choice between maxing E for farming, Q for burst (risky but high rewarding) or W for sustained damage.

Don't forget that she's mostly monotarget and easily kited so just as lee sin, rengar or shyvana her joker (ult) should allow her to get around her usual issues (kiting and sticking to the target to apply denting blows) one time every two minutes. Seems legit to me.

Actually I wish her W was changed to volib's one with stacking AS to smooth up her damage output but if you really wishes her to have nothing till the third stack comes, then of course she needs some burst otherwise she wouldn't do anything on team fights (just look at jax and imagine him without his Q and E insane damage).

TL;DR : give back denting blows to assault and battery but make W more depending on its current spell lvl.


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OnlyPlayFemales

Junior Member

12-12-2012

Vi also has a gap closer and a slow. But she also has damage on health and armor reduction.

Also, BC's flat ArPen is unique now. Bork is an anti-health tank item. But these are not the point, the point is the utility on Vi's W allows her to skip anti-tank items and invest in something else.

On a side note, I remember the first time I used Vi in jungle, I added W first and at lvl1 she already clear red faster than other champion having madred's razor..


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Talith PA

Senior Member

12-12-2012

The %health damage proc on the ult auto E combo wasn't the most powerful portion of it. She is suffering from the ult combo no longer shredding armor upfront and increasing her attack speed meaning it takes longer for her to ramp up and fight at full strength, at that point more auto attack focused champions are doing much more work than her.

The loss of attack speed in particular makes it much more likely that the E punch never goes off if you are even slightly slowed or trying to hit a fast moving target.


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Taikero

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
gypsylord:
Patch notes:

W:
Reduced AD scaling to 1% per 35 AD (down from 1% per 30AD)

R:
Reduced base damage to 200/325/450 (down from 200/350/500)
R no longer applies denting blows.

So the nerf I'm guessing you guys are noticing the most is the removal of the denting blows stack on R. From a gameplay standpoint I really dislike this change. It majorly cuts into Vi's flow and combo feel. From a balance standpoint however we think it may be necessary as a way to tone down Vi's burst damage (WHICH WAS INSANELY HIGH) without having to make the bases on her W, E or R feel awful on their own. The reason she's bursting so hard right now is her ult basically guarantees that she will instantly proc denting blows. The combo is R, auto, E+W proc, Q, auto, E+W proc. That's a HUGE amount of burst. Removing the denting blows from the ult seems to solve this.

The question I have for you guys is this:
How unfun is it having denting blows removed from the ult? Do you want it back? If so, what would be a better feeling way to nerf Vi's burst in place of this change? Should we hit W base damage? W AD ratio? E damage? Base AD? What do you guys think?


R should proc Denting Blows, no question about it.

Make W scale more intelligently.

Bonus Physical Damage: 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10% of target's max health (+1% per 30 bonus AD)
Attack Speed Bonus: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50%

The above is how it scales today.

Make it scale like the below:

Bonus Physical Damage: 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10% of target's max health (+1% per 30 bonus AD)
Attack Speed Bonus: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50%
Armor Reduction: 10% / 11% / 12% / 13% / 14% / 15%

Essentially, make W shred armor much less early on, and scale with points into something better (15-20% from 10%).

If R does not apply Denting Blows, then Vi is not an immediate threat on landing her ult, she is a delayed threat. An ADC can still focus on another target until Vi gets her W proc, or that AP Carry has plenty of time to work on getting that Zhonya's up to negate Vi's damage.

Even with 15% armor reduction, Vi with The Black Cleaver will still shred 40% or so of her target's armor. That's plenty and still very powerful.


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Arcolyte

Recruiter

12-12-2012

gypsylord

If you take the time to read this thank you; if not, then to hell with you. (conan reference, putting this here to prevent any hurt feels/confusion)

I wouldn't term it 'unfun' per se. I would, however, say it is extraordinarily inconsistent. Why does her Falcon punch get to apply it, but not her ultimate? I would work on mellowing out the burst from her W and make it better for sustained damage with damage spikes

For example
Reduce base % by 2% increase per level to 1.25%(maybe not) return AD scaling to 30:1% and increase attack speed increase by ~2.5% per level.

This accomplishes several things:
1 Skilling it becomes important, making an active decision between QWE
2 Building tank becomes less reliably bursty/damaging
3 Building damage becomes rewarding more damage = more damage, it's win win.
4 Increasing the attack speed rewards people who can weave attacks and abilities like lee sin.

Another thing would be making the % armor reduction scale also, but I kind of hate that about Urgot. Urgot is the only champ with scaling % reduction.

Thanks for your time.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-12-2012

1. Vi has no slow. Q is a knockback.

2. People seem to think Her R applied the armour-shred? From what I can tell, this never happened. R applied 1 W stack, you needed 3 stacks for the armour shred/AS Buff.

3. Armour reduction doesn't stack additively, 15+25% Armour reduction add up to 36.25%, not 40% armour reduction.

4. @gypsylord, if you smartcast, and you hit Q, you can't take it back, it'll go on cooldown. Something should probably be done... if you keep it charged till it "fizzles" maybe not have it go on cooldown? The downside is of course that then if you fear a gank you just keep it charged.
Solutions/replies to this:
i. Don't refund the mana.
ii. Maybe a really short cooldown, 5-2 seconds (scaling with level), so if you do it you still have some seconds of vulnerability.
iii. You can't attack while Q is charging, so there's already some opportunity cost paid, especially since if you want to AA right now you have to actually use the ability and it then goes on full cooldown.


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Zenmetsu Saseru

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Not to mention that reduction also differs from penetration in calculations.


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Spiku

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
gypsylord:
Patch notes:

The question I have for you guys is this:
How unfun is it having denting blows removed from the ult? Do you want it back? If so, what would be a better feeling way to nerf Vi's burst in place of this change? Should we hit W base damage? W AD ratio? E damage? Base AD? What do you guys think?


I think as a designer you should not ask leading questions like this. In lane, it makes no difference because you should be applying the stacks and saving the ulti for escape; in team fights, given you will explode afterwards, it seems strange not to apply it at the end of the ulti (so its damage doesn't beenfit).

Just how much damage are you wanting to mitigate? What change are -you- requiring to make her acceptable? I still have issues when I look at the other popular top laners and the different types of output they do when next to Vi.

Presently I have to assume a skill discrepency, as I constantly find enemy Vi's to be underwhelming; making very little impact outside of counter ganks, and usually not winning their lane or only taking decent ganks when against some of the very lowest of the bucket. When I play as her, I find I can farm my lane fair enough, but I do not see anywhere near the level of burst and fear people purport; even with the wins and games that aren't 3v5 or 4v5 (yay pbe)



Right now, as much as I love playing Vi, I don't really see much reason in picking her for a team; even with a team strong off of a primary initiator; at that point I would rather roll a true tank. If I want a closing bruiser initiator with a disable set then Rengar, Riven and Jax all provide more for me, for brawlers much is the same but I could roll in Darius who makes more impact over a team fight. Hell, you could nerf her E and her W and her R if you made the R reset on kill ;D