Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Vi, the Piltover Enforcer - Feedback Thread

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jdsa

Recruiter

12-10-2012

Playing against her is the wost thing imaginable: she has so much movement that it is nearly impossible to get early kills in lane, anytime she is in trouble she can just fly away. It is not fun: with all the damage boots to her basic attacks, she can take a few huge hits on you doing % hp. if you are building a tanky bruiser, you have no chance. Some armor pen and se basically does % true damage.
Later in game she is like a health tank without any real health items, just a black cleaver and she's at about 2.6k. I know she is supposed to be a bruiser, but why does she have to be such an explosive force.
The scaling is soo bad and it makes absoultely no sense why she has an ability with 1< ad, when she is an ad champ.
The combination of movement and minion clearing ability gives her no reason to worry about last hits, they all just come to her.
In conclusion i feel as if there was no balance given to this champ which in the end looks like an upgraded Riven,
Im pretty disappointed


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HellComet

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
SandDjinn:
So i gotta ask gypsylord, did you take any inspiration from Terry Bogard when making Vi because she screams female Terry. Her Vault Breaker is Terry's Burn Knuckle, Excessive Force is like Power Geyser, Assault and Battery is Power Dunk, and if you can combo Vault Breaker into Excessive force its Buster Wolf.

So is this just a HUGE coincidence or was there inspiration there. Either way i invoke the right of "sense of entitlement over the internet" and ask for a Terry Bogard-esque skin. Make it legendary ill gladly pay for it. i want to hear an " ARE YOU OK!?"


I love a terry Bogard skin for her, it would be the Bogardiest


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

gypsylord

Champion Designer

12-10-2012

Hey folks,
Thanks again for all the feedback. Responses to a few more common comments:
Vi stops moving when she casts Q:
I've tested this multiple times and I don't think it's the case. Could be a perception problem. What does happen is she slows herself while doing a small "twitch" to transition into the new animation. Due to the change in the position of her head during this time it may look like she's stopping, but I'm pretty sure she will continue on her course unhindered (asides from the slow). Mind testing her with this in mind and letting me know if it still feels like she's stopping?

Vi's E's animation is too long and causes her to lose attack speed:
When I first created the E I thought this was the case as well. After testing it, I'm 95% sure it's another perception problem. The weird things about Vi's E attack animation is that it has a cast frame of 4 while her normal attacks have a cast frame of 8. This means that the damage from your E comes out twice as fast as a normal autoattack and then afterwards it seems way longer before your next attack hits. Here's what is actually happening ("!" = hits, "-" = unit of time):

--------!------------!---- <--Normal attack pattern
----!----------------!---- <--Attack pattern with E on the first hit.


So what's happening when you use E is you still get the same # of attacks per second, E's damage just comes out faster so there ends up being a longer amount of time between hits. Is this a good thing? Seems like it's causing her to feel sluggish...

Patch Notes:
Passive:
Reduced shield duration to 3 secs (down from 5)

Q:
Reduced charge time to 1.25 seconds (down from 1.5)
Changed cooldown to 18/15.5/13/10.5/8 (down from 19/16/13/10/7)

W:
Reduced Armor shred to 20% (down from 25%)
Reduced AD scaling to 1% per 30 AD (down from 1% per 25 AD)

E:
Reduced AoE range to 600 (down from 625)

R:
Reverted AD ratio nerf. AD ratio is back to 1.4 (up from 1.35)

In the end W needed to be toned down. The burst was too high and the armor shred made it so you could never fight her.

The changes to Q are the ones that worry me most as they are the ones that will most affect her flow and feel. How does the reduced charge time on the Q feel? Is it allowing you to do more cool stuff? Does it feel less clunky? Can people still dodge the thing (they should be able to)? What about the change to the Q CD? Do you still feel like you have the tools to move around in a fight?

Probably still not perfectly balanced. If she needs more nerfs they will come. Again, the goal is to make it so she isn't one-shotting people while still being able to provide significant amounts of persistent threat throughout a fight. Don't want her to be crazy OP but also don't want to over nerf.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vulking

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
gypsylord:
Hey folks,
Thanks again for all the feedback. Responses to a few more common comments:
Vi stops moving when she casts Q:
I've tested this multiple times and I don't think it's the case. Could be a perception problem. What does happen is she slows herself while doing a small "twitch" to transition into the new animation. Due to the change in the position of her head during this time it may look like she's stopping, but I'm pretty sure she will continue on her course unhindered (asides from the slow). Mind testing her with this in mind and letting me know if it still feels like she's stopping?

Vi's E's animation is too long and causes her to lose attack speed:
When I first created the E I thought this was the case as well. After testing it, I'm 95% sure it's another perception problem. The weird things about Vi's E attack animation is that it has a cast frame of 4 while her normal attacks have a cast frame of 8. This means that the damage from your E comes out twice as fast as a normal autoattack and then afterwards it seems way longer before your next attack hits. Here's what is actually happening ("!" = hits, "-" = unit of time):

--------!------------!---- <--Normal attack pattern
----!----------------!---- <--Attack pattern with E on the first hit.


So what's happening when you use E is you still get the same # of attacks per second, E's damage just comes out faster so there ends up being a longer amount of time between hits. Is this a good thing? Seems like it's causing her to feel sluggish...

Patch Notes:
Passive:
Reduced shield duration to 3 secs (down from 5)

Q:
Reduced charge time to 1.25 seconds (down from 1.5)
Changed cooldown to 18/15.5/13/10.5/8 (down from 19/16/13/10/7)

W:
Reduced Armor shred to 20% (down from 25%)
Reduced AD scaling to 1% per 30 AD (down from 1% per 25 AD)

E:
Reduced AoE range to 600 (down from 625)

R:
Reverted AD ratio nerf. AD ratio is back to 1.4 (up from 1.35)

In the end W needed to be toned down. The burst was too high and the armor shred made it so you could never fight her.

The changes to Q are the ones that worry me most as they are the ones that will most affect her flow and feel. How does the reduced charge time on the Q feel? Is it allowing you to do more cool stuff? Does it feel less clunky? Can people still dodge the thing (they should be able to)? What about the change to the Q CD? Do you still feel like you have the tools to move around in a fight?

Probably still not perfectly balanced. If she needs more nerfs they will come. Again, the goal is to make it so she isn't one-shotting people while still being able to provide significant amounts of persistent threat throughout a fight. Don't want her to be crazy OP but also don't want to over nerf.

Any news on the possibility of changing her backpack? is looks so off, I still think that something related with steam instead of pulsefire like energy will look way better on her default skin since it look much more steampunky.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Henry Plainview

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Would you consider removing the percent of maximum health damage on W? In my opinion percent of maximum health and armor shred on one ability feels terrible to fight against, you could adjust her abilities elsewhere.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
gypsylord:
Hey folks,
Thanks again for all the feedback. Responses to a few more common comments:
Vi stops moving when she casts Q:
I've tested this multiple times and I don't think it's the case. Could be a perception problem. What does happen is she slows herself while doing a small "twitch" to transition into the new animation. Due to the change in the position of her head during this time it may look like she's stopping, but I'm pretty sure she will continue on her course unhindered (asides from the slow). Mind testing her with this in mind and letting me know if it still feels like she's stopping?


I need to test, but I think it might be related to when you cast Q after you targeted an opponent with your "move" so it's an "Attack move", rather than a normal move to a location.
I need to test it, but if you have an enemy highlighted as an AA target, and you hit Q, you definitely should keep walking towards them. I'm not sure how it is now but I remember feeling like I stopped too when I tested her.

Quote:
gypsylord:
Vi's E's animation is too long and causes her to lose attack speed:
When I first created the E I thought this was the case as well. After testing it, I'm 95% sure it's another perception problem. The weird things about Vi's E attack animation is that it has a cast frame of 4 while her normal attacks have a cast frame of 8. This means that the damage from your E comes out twice as fast as a normal autoattack and then afterwards it seems way longer before your next attack hits. Here's what is actually happening ("!" = hits, "-" = unit of time):

--------!------------!---- <--Normal attack pattern
----!----------------!---- <--Attack pattern with E on the first hit.


So what's happening when you use E is you still get the same # of attacks per second, E's damage just comes out faster so there ends up being a longer amount of time between hits. Is this a good thing? Seems like it's causing her to feel sluggish...


Doesn't this remove some of the usefulness of AA resets/special AA modifiers? The whole point is getting more attacks in the same time frame. Sure, you do get one by cutting the end of the next attack by using an AA reset, but it's a bit weird about faster hit-frame attacks - since it's like a semi auto-attack reset (Xin Zhao's Q and the faster attack frame, for instance).

Quote:
gypsylord:

Passive:
Reduced shield duration to 3 secs (down from 5)


Perhaps this should call for a reverting of the passive cooldown. Baiting the passive had always been a way to handle things early game, before engaging her in a trade. With the lower duration and increased cooldown, you might be hurting her trading too much, for a champion with zero sustain or resistances on her kit - or a cooldown reducable shield.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zeninth

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
gypsylord:


Patch Notes:
Passive:
Reduced shield duration to 3 secs (down from 5)

Q:
Reduced charge time to 1.25 seconds (down from 1.5)
Changed cooldown to 18/15.5/13/10.5/8 (down from 19/16/13/10/7)

W:
Reduced Armor shred to 20% (down from 25%)
Reduced AD scaling to 1% per 30 AD (down from 1% per 25 AD)

E:
Reduced AoE range to 600 (down from 625)

R:
Reverted AD ratio nerf. AD ratio is back to 1.4 (up from 1.35)

In the end W needed to be toned down. The burst was too high and the armor shred made it so you could never fight her.

The changes to Q are the ones that worry me most as they are the ones that will most affect her flow and feel. How does the reduced charge time on the Q feel? Is it allowing you to do more cool stuff? Does it feel less clunky? Can people still dodge the thing (they should be able to)? What about the change to the Q CD? Do you still feel like you have the tools to move around in a fight?


The reduced charge time for Q is a lot better! It feels less clunky now and isn't so super easily interrupted by other champs now shutting her down fairly hard.

I think the cooldown on rank 2 and 3 of Q could be a bit lower still. I say 16 seconds, 14 12, 10.5, 8 would be much better.

I think Q is the most fun and dynamic part of Vi's kit which will allow her to do some interesting things. Even though they are different champions, Riven's Q has an approximate 12 second cd at all levels and is aoe whereas Vi's stops on contact and only hits 1 target it seems. I think Vi's Q cooldown early and mid levels should be shorter to allow more use, even if the damage gets nerfed. In regards to if players can still dodge it, my answer is "can people dodge an Amumu bandage?". Just depends on skill, luck and timing. I don't think dodging Vi's Q should be of concern.

Nerf to W and E sounds fine. She scaled insanely well late game and cut through ppl like butter with it. Does activating E reset her autoattack animation like some other champs abilities which should be timed to maximize damage per second?

Her ult seems different before. Maybe it's just the animation or the wording is changed. But is the target still technically suppressed?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
Zeninth:
Her ult seems different before. Maybe it's just the animation or the wording is changed. But is the target still technically suppressed?


No, knocked up, which allows for the use of summoner spells like exhaust.

Also, Riven's Q goes on CD after you use the third tick, so the cooldown is a bit longer in use.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

gypsylord

Champion Designer

12-11-2012

Quote:
DiscworldDeath:
1. I need to test, but I think it might be related to when you cast Q after you targeted an opponent with your "move" so it's an "Attack move", rather than a normal move to a location.
I need to test it, but if you have an enemy highlighted as an AA target, and you hit Q, you definitely should keep walking towards them. I'm not sure how it is now but I remember feeling like I stopped too when I tested her.

2. Doesn't this remove some of the usefulness of AA resets/special AA modifiers? The whole point is getting more attacks in the same time frame. Sure, you do get one by cutting the end of the next attack by using an AA reset, but it's a bit weird about faster hit-frame attacks - since it's like a semi auto-attack reset (Xin Zhao's Q and the faster attack frame, for instance).


1. Good point on the attack move/Q interaction. I'll check that tomorrow and see if there's a problem there.

2. It's still useful as an AA reset because it removes the wind down of the attack BEFORE the e. Let's use the same visual with 3 attacks and assume the E is activated in the middle
--------!------------!------------!----___<--Normal attack pattern
--------!----!---------------!---- _____<--Attack pattern with E used to reset the second hit.

So when you activate E to reset hit #2 you get 2 attacks off really fast and even though the time between hit #2 and #3 is longer you're still getting those three hits over a shorter length of time.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-11-2012

It has bad interaction with life-steal.

Back when my Dominion Elo was under 1,600 Elo, I used to play a lot of Gangplank (we're talking quite over 100 games where I manually tracked the data).

Once you have lifesteal, the time between auto attacks becomes a critical consideration, because if you're engaged in a longer brawl and don't insta-gib people, then often what will keep you alive and let you kill the enemy rather than die is how often the lifesteal procs come in.

If you deal 1.2k damage every 1 second, with 20% lifesteal, it's often quite worse than 400 damage every 0.4 seconds. Even without lifesteal, so long the enemy can kill you in under 2 seconds it's clear why even though you lose DPS you gain total damage dealt (and this is why building defenses is increasing your damage, just not your DPS) - with lifesteal, it's even more extreme.

But I understand this is beyond the scope of merely Vi.

I still need to test her again after the changes and give feedback, but from my testing thus far, as a duelist, she really likes some lifesteal early game for sustain. I suspect even moreso with the passive nerfs.