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Darius Demise in Season 3?

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Infamous Kalen

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Ever since Season 3... I've gone from easy 4-6 KD average scores with Darius to um.... barely 1:1 and often 1:2 averages easy. His ability to take a hit is gone. And I always built him off-tanky. Now I find myself feeling better with rushing Ravenous Hydra for HP Regen sustain and overall damage increase. He just sucks at taking hits anymore. While RH is a strong and perfect item for Darius... I just don't know how Darius should last if he's built more offensively now than defensively. I can stack Warmogs, Frozen Mallet + Randuins and still not feel half as tanky as I once did. And Randuin's even has more HP now.

I also don't know how to start Darius anymore. What do the rest of you think? And how do you handle Darius in Season 3?

Generally he's become more offensive in my eyes. Good at it too. But being melee with no escape makes it hard to stay alive if he can't take a hit.


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Haelstrom

Senior Member

12-05-2012

TBH, the player base is finally adapting to Darius more is the only thing that's massively changed.

He has several very glaring weaknesses, and they're becoming more natural to exploit by an average player.

Then toss in these S3 changes which are big Darius nerfs for average / pub play IMO (rise of viable ranged on-hit builds = more on-hit kite tops played = bad time for Darius if they're good) --- only more experienced Darius players will come out of this fine.

Which I'm okay with, if it kills a few Darius OP threads in the GD.


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Infamous Kalen

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Haelstrom:
TBH, the player base is finally adapting to Darius more is the only thing that's massively changed.

He has several very glaring weaknesses, and they're becoming more natural to exploit by an average player.

Then toss in these S3 changes which are big Darius nerfs for average / pub play IMO (rise of viable ranged on-hit builds = more on-hit kite tops played = bad time for Darius if they're good) --- only more experienced Darius players will come out of this fine.

Which I'm okay with, if it kills a few Darius OP threads in the GD.


That's the thing. I've played Darius for quite awhile obsessively. Main reason I took advantage of the champion sale + skin sale of Darius the past week on this newer alt.

I play him like a motor reflex. As I do with any champ I play obsessively.
I've always been able to build him tanky while still being able to abuse his passive early game for more damage output without building damage based items. Then maybe a Frozen Mallet+Atma's, or TrinityForce, w/e the case may need to be. It's always done the job before. Build tanky enough that I can withstand harass to the point that I'm not even bothered with in team fights early in. Like most tank types of course.

But since the new patch, his ability to take hits has plummeted. They intentionally tried to decrease early game defense and the ability to build as defensively as before overall. But I think that has backfired on bruiser champs. Especially one like Darius that was most known for his ability to take a hit.

Darius was never overpowered. Any player with brains knows this and anyone above 1700 ELO knows this. Every champion has a role and counters like the rest.

Question is... when you remove a bruiser melee champion's ability to take hits when he has no escapes and short range... you kind of force them to build just that much more based on overall damage rather than being able to take a hit. Because you'll need to put that much more money and time into defense items to get them that tanky. And they still will not be as tanky as before.

Darius does have the potential now to become a monster in offense. I'm going to test out playing him offensively rather than bruiser. Not 100% glass cannon because he is melee afterall. But there are a ton of new items that work well with AD melee mana champs.

Perhaps Season 3 is the demise of old heavy bruiser Darius. And the rebirth of a more offensively scary Darius.


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Carnack

Senior Member

12-05-2012

...the game just got turned on it's head YESTERDAY.


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Trace On

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Maybe we'll see darius being build like more of an ad caster, with fm, GA, boots, and 3 ad items


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

12-05-2012

price of defense went up
effectiveness of defense has lowered some
price of power has gone down
effectiveness of power has risen
mobility is up
usefulness of boots has gone down until tier 3
more champions are becoming more viable
people wont get dunked as easy for a while, although I don't recommend hydra on darius

also the price of basic lifesteal has almost doubled


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Infamous Kalen

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
CerealBoxOfDoom:
price of defense went up
effectiveness of defense has lowered some
price of power has gone down
effectiveness of power has risen
mobility is up
usefulness of boots has gone down until tier 3
more champions are becoming more viable
people wont get dunked as easy for a while, although I don't recommend hydra on darius

also the price of basic lifesteal has almost doubled


I find myself almost unable to ever not buy the Hydra for Darius. It's just way too strong and perfect for Darius.

Hydra has a built-in mini Darius Q per hit.
An Active Q every 10 seconds.
Strong damage output.
Moderate HP Regen sustainability.
Combined with 10% Lifesteal which also takes effect on Hydra's AoE auto attacks passive + active.

Darius finally has a sustain item that increases his DPS.

With this item alone he no longer needs to rely on building Frozen Mallet/Warmogs + Atma's Impaler and/or Trinity Force to do some form of damage aside from his passive while trying to build tanky.

Combine Hydra with Trinity Force and he's OP in damage output.
Throw in Randuin's + Warmogs and he has over 120-150 HP Regen per 5. Which is OP. Especially since he can stack up to 4000 HP easy with just that item combination and Lv. 15-18.
Then add a Guardian Angel or Maw Malmortius and he's set.

The thing is... champs we once relied upon for being able to take a ton of hits are no longer reliable for the same reasons. HP is the new form of main defense now. Especially with these new defense shredder items and the % DPS over Flat DPS equation change. But more importantly, the way of fighting has changed overall.
Dedicated tanks are no longer able to soak up an entire team's burst long enough in team fights. The new way of tanking is utilization of skill kits more than ever now. Combined with the use of items and their actives/passives. So if a champion is incapable of sustainability in team fights from their own skill kit and then the items active's, they can't really be used the same way anymore. Which means a champion like Darius who was always made tanky through the use of item stacking for defense is no longer capable of gaining defense the same way. He has to be built differently and played differently as a whole. He never had built in sustain before. He was never able to regen HP or steal it in a fast manner. Or deflect or negate a large percentage of damage. Or even block a specific amount of damage. Nothing of him personally has ever made him tank. Purely items themselves have.


New Darius Play
From what I've been able to do with Darius.. I build him with HP, Hydra, Trinity Force, Warmogs and such. I'm able to take some hits but more importantly, I'm able to AoE destroy an opposing team. In team fights I can be utilized with the ability to help do hard damage to the entire enemy team, peel enemies off of adc, do killing blows, slow for chases, etc. An important factor is being able to help insta-drop HP and snag fleeing enemies. This item build allows me to do all the above. Allowing my ADC and the rest of team to drop and finish the enemies that much quicker and easier.

Old Attempt Darius Play
I've tried to build Darius the old way. The biggest problem I have with trying to build defensive items to negate the enemy damage at all times is that the new items and the new formula for damage negates pretty much all of the items I build for defense.
Before the patch if I built defense items early, the enemy was beginning to do less and less damage against me. While my passive allowed me to keep doing hurt damage without the use of offense items. But now since the patch, defense items help a little in taking a hit, but not half as drastically as before in comparison to new offense items. Not to mention the time it takes me to get a counter defense item the enemy has bought double the offense items. So building purely defensively to counter being harmed no longer works the same way.
When team fights begin I melt far too fast to last unlike before. And with not enough insta-damage right then and there without the use of passive full stacks Darius doesn't quite do as much damage as needed.

Since the patch... building Darius with a strong offense with the new damage formula + items makes his entire skill kit insane with damage output. Build movement speed on him and gaps and range are no issue at all to him as he shreds through enemies.

I would still build him in the defense tree more than anything though. It provides him what he needs as a melee champ with no built-in blinks/flashes.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
HexTorque:
I find myself almost unable to ever not buy the Hydra for Darius. It's just way too strong and perfect for Darius.

Hydra has a built-in mini Darius Q per hit.
An Active Q every 10 seconds.
Strong damage output.
Moderate HP Regen sustainability.
Combined with 10% Lifesteal which also takes effect on Hydra's AoE auto attacks passive + active.

Darius finally has a sustain item that increases his DPS.

With this item alone he no longer needs to rely on building Frozen Mallet/Warmogs + Atma's Impaler and/or Trinity Force to do some form of damage aside from his passive while trying to build tanky.

Combine Hydra with Trinity Force and he's OP in damage output.
Throw in Randuin's + Warmogs and he has over 120-150 HP Regen per 5. Which is OP. Especially since he can stack up to 4000 HP easy with just that item combination and Lv. 15-18.
Then add a Guardian Angel or Maw Malmortius and he's set.

The thing is... champs we once relied upon for being able to take a ton of hits are no longer reliable for the same reasons. HP is the new form of main defense now. Especially with these new defense shredder items and the % DPS over Flat DPS equation change. But more importantly, the way of fighting has changed overall.
Dedicated tanks are no longer able to soak up an entire team's burst long enough in team fights. The new way of tanking is utilization of skill kits more than ever now. Combined with the use of items and their actives/passives. So if a champion is incapable of sustainability in team fights from their own skill kit and then the items active's, they can't really be used the same way anymore. Which means a champion like Darius who was always made tanky through the use of item stacking for defense is no longer capable of gaining defense the same way. He has to be built differently and played differently as a whole. He never had built in sustain before. He was never able to regen HP or steal it in a fast manner. Or deflect or negate a large percentage of damage. Or even block a specific amount of damage. Nothing of him personally has ever made him tank. Purely items themselves have.


New Darius Play
From what I've been able to do with Darius.. I build him with HP, Hydra, Trinity Force, Warmogs and such. I'm able to take some hits but more importantly, I'm able to AoE destroy an opposing team. In team fights I can be utilized with the ability to help do hard damage to the entire enemy team, peel enemies off of adc, do killing blows, slow for chases, etc. An important factor is being able to help insta-drop HP and snag fleeing enemies. This item build allows me to do all the above. Allowing my ADC and the rest of team to drop and finish the enemies that much quicker and easier.

Old Attempt Darius Play
I've tried to build Darius the old way. The biggest problem I have with trying to build defensive items to negate the enemy damage at all times is that the new items and the new formula for damage negates pretty much all of the items I build for defense.
Before the patch if I built defense items early, the enemy was beginning to do less and less damage against me. While my passive allowed me to keep doing hurt damage without the use of offense items. But now since the patch, defense items help a little in taking a hit, but not half as drastically as before in comparison to new offense items. Not to mention the time it takes me to get a counter defense item the enemy has bought double the offense items. So building purely defensively to counter being harmed no longer works the same way.
When team fights begin I melt far too fast to last unlike before. And with not enough insta-damage right then and there without the use of passive full stacks Darius doesn't quite do as much damage as needed.

Since the patch... building Darius with a strong offense with the new damage formula + items makes his entire skill kit insane with damage output. Build movement speed on him and gaps and range are no issue at all to him as he shreds through enemies.

I would still build him in the defense tree more than anything though. It provides him what he needs as a melee champ with no built-in blinks/flashes.

The way of tanking hasn't changed. You're just now realizing how its always been lol. Hp has always been the safest and most expensive defense. Regaining hp quickly has always been a tactic used though relying on hydra for that on a champ like darius with almost no AS buffs or crit chance will benefit you little unless people gather around him foolishly. Also I wouldn't try to replace frozen mallet with hydra especially when darius's only utility is now something as fragile as AoE lifesteal


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Infamous Kalen

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
CerealBoxOfDoom:
The way of tanking hasn't changed. You're just now realizing how its always been lol. Hp has always been the safest and most expensive defense. Regaining hp quickly has always been a tactic used though relying on hydra for that on a champ like darius with almost no AS buffs or crit chance will benefit you little unless people gather around him foolishly. Also I wouldn't try to replace frozen mallet with hydra especially when darius's only utility is now something as fragile as AoE lifesteal


Trinity Force + Hydra.
You get your slow proc every other hit. And Darius has a naturally fast attack speed due to his quick auto attack animation despite the actual "stat spec" of his AS per second. And adding Trinity Force's AS from the built-in Zeal makes him attack more than fast enough to keep that proc'd. Combined with Tier 3 boots for increased 12% MS per attack and Trinity Hydra is dominating anyone trying to flee. Not to mention the MS increase from Zeal as well keeps Darius on enemies.

I'm not "just realizing" anything. HP alone has never been something that can take hits by itself. Defense from Armor and Magic Resist COMBINED with HP was deadly tanky. But HP alone? No. Any high burster could drop HP by itself fairly easy. I believe you're not connecting the dots here about the large difference between true-tank champs and HP/MR/AR tank champs. And I'm not sure you are aware there are 2 types of tankiness.
You have champs who, by themselves, were not designed to be able to sustain and soak up damage. But with building HP/MR/AR they could do so. These champs usually could be built this false way of appearing tanky due to their skill kits allowing them to still be efficient somehow without needing to build other ways or offensively. Such as Darius' pull for utility, his slow and his passive dmg builder.
You then have champs who naturally have the capability of sustain, endurance, and survival. Whether through quick HP replenishing, damage negating/deflecting/absorbing, blocking even and many other ways. Mundo has the ability to quickly regain HP and take less damage. Garen can naturally take less damage, take even more damage and regain HP very fast. Rammus increases his defense naturally. And can taunt enemies. Negating their ability to use their skill kits for increased damage. Alistar can drastically reduce overall damage taken. He can prevent being harmed temporarily through multiple skills as well. Even heal himself a little bit.
Some tanks are qualified tanks through utilization of building tanky because their skill kits have high utility purposes for their team as well and synergize with items. Rammus gains DPS through building more Armor.
Darius has always been built on builds that utilized the HP/MR/AR tankiness style over true-tank style. Since he has never had a true-tank capability in himself alone.

Example of old Darius build:

Merc Treads
Force of Nature
Warmog's Armor
Trinity Force or Frozen Mallet
Guardian Angel
Atma's Impaler
(Not in any specific order)

Full Build Lv. 18:

200+ Armor
Near 200+ Magic Resist
Near 3500+ HP
150-180 AD

It costs a lot more now to build off of Armor/Magic Resist items. But many items have new item builds to get where they need to as well.
Force of Nature is gone.
Warmog's Armor in my opinion is better than before and costs a little less than before I believe.
Trinity Force is still efficient.
Frozen Mallet is still good.
Atma's Impaler seems a little more not worth-while anymore. As Randuin's combined with Guardian Angel gives much better Armor and plenty more HP and overall usefulness.


What you are not getting is that the new system is set up to allow burst champs and well... generally all offense to become more offensive, stronger and deadly in terms of damage. Despite building armor.
Even if Darius built heavily on armor... Have you seen the new DPS ADC's can do late game? And burst champs as well? What used to fortify defense and negate heavy damage is more than less capable of doing so anymore.
200 Armor now is like maybe 110 Armor back then. But is anyone going to really bother building 400 armor? No. And it wouldn't help with anything actually. After building just so much Armor or Magic Resist it begins to make little difference.

The point being is that you are no longer capable of being out-right tanky just through building HP, Magic Resist & Armor. You need damage negating abilities in your champion's skill kits. And the ability to deflect damage, reduce damage, absorb damage and even block damage to be considered tanky now.
Darius' skill kit has none of the above mentioned. And was one of those champs who relied on being able to take a hit through building HP, Armor & Magic Resist. He was always an HP/MR/AR tank. Never a true natural tank.

So my overall point is that HP/MR/AR relied-upon-champions are now kind of screwed up by the new system. Even a champion like Singed who now has to rely more on utilizing his Ultimate at the right time durations to be tanky despite item building.

The question becomes... do HP/MR/AR relied-upon-champions need to start building a little more offensively or build defensively in different ways now?


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
HexTorque:
tank stuff

If you aren't just realizing this why do you seem so excited?

I'm aware that tank can be used in multiple ways and I dont consider something a tank just because it can take hits or sustain. I dont consider darius, even with this build to be a tank. To be honest the sustain isn't really even that strong and depends on being surrounded by hp sources to get efficient lifesteal. Its interesting and all but its not something new.

Also it seems like a stun, AS reduction, or many other things would just shut you down


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