### [Math] For all the people saying that %Mpen first is better.

Razy6trix

Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyraknoss
Something to point out to you, lower numbers are lower.

Yes you result penetrating less now but that's because the total values changed, NOT because of the %value calculating first.

To use your exact example an enemy with 43MR against your 8% and 23 flat = 16.5 MR remaining. In the old system that same enemy against the same numbers but now calculated 23 flat and 8% = 18.4 MR remaining. Swapping the calculation was a buff they simply made penetration harder to get. But they also made AS, MR, and Armor harder to get so there's no direct nerf you're just inline with the new gold values on items.
In the old system, it was 29 magic pen and 10% pen.

So no, you fail.

Razy6trix

Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razy6trix
In the old system, it was 29 magic pen and 10% pen.

So no, you fail.
GD, where facts get downvoted.

Nores

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razy6trix
For all the people saying that the new calculations benefit the AP champs...
You are wrong:

- you can rune for flat magpen (incredibly effective on some % dmg based champs like eve,elise ,morde)
- flat magpen got buffs (abyssal buffed back,to 700, haunting guise has great upgrade)
- MR and HP items got nerfed (so are armor ones too)

So as late game AP with voidstaff and full magpen build you lookign to deal true (or close to) damage to anything under 200 mr

Antholagnia

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nores
with voidstaff and full magpen build you lookign to deal true (or close to) damage to anything under 200 mr
I haven't done the math, but this sounds like an overstatement to me.

EasymodeX

Senior Member

That's a definite overstatement. Full magpen will deal near true damage up to about 100 MR.

200 MR will still reduce damage by ~42% or so.

In any case, assuming the same MR between S2 and S3 (which is a false case), the damage difference with the same pen/shred configuration is less than 10%. In most cases, 1-7%.

In a few cases, damage is actually higher in S3, even with the same MR levels.

The real difference is that Void staff is now a strong augmentation to existing flat MPen, and is worth considering as an "addition to", rather than an "alternative" or "replacement for" flat MPen.

EasymodeX

Senior Member

In terms of the concept of "rushing a Void staff"

Assumptions: level 10-ish, 0.8 AP ratio, 240 base damage spell. 25 AP from masteries and runes (flat AP quints).

Gold investment options:

Abyssal: 2650 (70 AP, 20 shred)
Void: 2295 (70 AP, 35% pen)
Guise+Blasting Wand: 1485+860 = 2345 (65 AP, 15 pen)

Abyssal has some defense stats, so an an offense item its value is a bit less than 2650. Void is pure offense. Guise has a small defensive component, but it is not significant. Either way I threw in a blasting wand to make the comparison more similar.

Results

Against 30 MR -- A: 316 V: 316 G: 312
Against 60 MR -- A: 278 V: 280 G: 266
Against 90 MR -- A: 224 V: 242 G: 216
Against 120 MR -- A: 187 V: 212 G: 181

So, bottom line is that the void staff, alone, is the best DPS solution of the 3. Rushing it is is good ... for personal DPS. With the new methods of penetration calculation, Void is no longer "bad" early game. Note that the Abyssal may appear weaker, but offers useful defense and the shred boosts the damage of teammates as well.

Sidenote:

Just ran a comparison for Deathcap (3200) rush versus Void Staff + Blasting Wand (3155), and the Void staff deals more damage on any target with 40 or more MR. So, the Void staff seems like a very solid DPS purchase in S3, even in the early-ish game.

Checking Sorc rush versus Blasting Wand:

Wand is marginally better at ~25-45 MR, but Sorc boots are better at other points. Void is also better than sorc boots + Wand.

octavian1127

Senior Member

Both MR and Mpen values have been nerfed. It doesn't mean that the way it's calculated doesn't help with stacking % and flat pen as a build option.

Tanerian

Senior Member

Good stuff here, but I never really understand the complaints to changes like these.

Now I understand when it's a nerf/buff to a champion, but not when it's a nerf/buff across the board that everyone has to deal with.

Weaker or Stronger, there is still going to be an AP character, and this effects all of them more or less the same.

Lisztomaniac

Senior Member

youre not taking into account that 23 pen is not the max ammount you can get, so if you take into account how much flat pen you can really get, it gets even better, so low values as your OP have proved are around the same, maybe a little worse now, but high values of penetration are WAY better, with 40 flat pen and 40% pen, new values give this:

on a 200mr target.

new:
200-40% equals 120 plus the flat reducction is 80 mr

old :
200-40(from flat reduction) 160-40% (64) equals 96 mr

now you may say that 16 is not a lot but it itself its a buff, couple with the higher MR costs, its a huge buff, now stop complaining.

also, on your original you compare diferent mpen values but you compare both to the same MR values, thats not how comparisons are make, if youre gonna take into account the new lower mpen values, you have to take into account the new lower mres values.

Nores

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
That's a definite overstatement. Full magpen will deal near true damage up to about 100 MR.

200 MR will still reduce damage by ~42% or so.
Void+masteries = 43% penetration
magpen rune page =20 mgpen
abyssal =20 mgpen
sorc boots =15 mgpen
guise=15 mgpen

Total Flat = 70

So against 200 MR 200-114-70=44 MR .So you right that against full MR tank it still matters somewhat. But what about 150 MR? -which is what tanks usually have if they dont stack MR.

Or 80-100 MR carries? -Right True damage

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