Riot; If I showed you that your Trynd remake was bad, would you change it?

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Norak

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Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megling View Post
It's funny that you call him fundamentally flawed then your changes are mostly number shifts.

Also I remember you, you just hate anything to do with Tryndamere cus they took away your ap tryn.
I loved playing AD Trynd too, but now he's just boring to play because theirs only certain things you can do with him, his skill cap, and at the same time, his fun level, were lowered greatly. He was also made less viable as AD and AP.

Of course they're -mostly- number shifts, they can't all be complete reworks. I reworked the important parts and everything else is just number shifting. It does what it needs to do, that is all.

oh and sometimes numbers alone can create huge flaws in a champions design. I.E. Trynd and Zed.

Trynd's Q cooldown is so long that he can't Q-Ult-Q anymore, if he uses Q it's on cooldown when he ults, leaving him on 1hp for 1-3 seconds. That's a design flaw.

Zed's whole combo relies on his W, but it's on such a long cd that if you mistakenly place it, or even if you place it correctly, you have long periods where you can match your lane opponent effectively.


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theDreamer

Senior Member

12-03-2012

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Originally Posted by Norak View Post
I have no problem answering your questions, you put them in a nice to read format and asked nicely. I don't know why, but you saying "see the problem?" at the end got under my skin. Must be a pet peve.

1. AP Trynd worked like so:
1:1 on E, short cooldown, decent damage. With a needlessly large rod he could 1-hit entire minion waves (excluding cannon minions). His Q has a 1.5:1 and was on an 8 second cooldown. He was early game dominant, won his lane and cs'd amazingly. He could gank pretty well because of the mobility, damage and AoE his E gave him, on top of his tower diving ability with Q and R.

Mid game he kept viable with a Lichbane, so his burst doubled, and he can 1-hit entire minion waves (including cannon minions this time, spin through all, hit cannon with lichbane). He could also push/Back/tank towers without minions very easily.

Lategame he would deathfire->Spin->Lichbane to 1-shot nearly anyone, then crit 2-3 times in a second, gaining him another spin+lichbane. He was strong at all points in the game and extremely fun. I'll post a screenshot for you:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...9&d=1350465435

2) Believe me when I say it's much better to have split damage. Riven hates it enough that enemies can stack armor against her and make her deal no damage, if she doesn't win her lane heavily enough with her amazing kit then she just can't stop them from dominating her in lane through sheer armor stacking. Trynd doesn't have that early dominance, his early game is unreliable. Having his E be physical was a balance change which was a bad idea, it has nothing to do with the fact that he uses his sword and spins. Otherwise Amumu's Q and E should be physical, because his Q he throws a bandage and his E he does a backflip and throws bandages everywhere. It's not about what makes sense; it's about what is best for balance.

Trynd's E should be physical for AP and AD Trynd's benefit. AD Trynd so his early game is better and less easily countered and AP Trynd so he can be played again as an AP carry who insights rage into his enemies rather than a troll champ who insights rage in his team mates.

Do you get me?
Sorry about irking you, the "see the problem?" was genuine. Too hard to convey tone in text.

I see about AP trynd. Still wonky, not quite as viable as your standard APs, but like Yi, one ability with a stupid good AP ratio and something can work sometimes.

There is nothing wrong with AP/Mid champions dealing physical damage, by the way (I mean, thematically, sure, but Zed and Talon are AD Casters and can be played mid and deal mostly physical damage). I disagree about Amumu thematically dealing physical damage, but to be fair, Theme <<<<<< Balance, and yeah, since Trynd has literally 1 ability that deals damage, it (maybe) should be magic, but I accept the point.

While Spinning Slash dealing magic helps his early game, it hurts his late game. Not playing Trynd much, I'm curious which is better.

I'm not really sure what an Melee AD Carry does versus a Bruiser, which is a problem with Melee ADCs, but, treating them like a bruiser (kill the enemy ADC), we get as follows.

In a teamfight, I assume (AD) Trynd would: Spin towards the Ranged AD or AP carry, moving through and damaging their tanky frontline, and then smack the carry with his sword until he has to ult, hopefully he gets a kill or two while his team is dealing damage to everyone else, spin out, heal, and live.

If E was magic, and scaled off AD, he'd have dealt 0 damage to the front line. If E was magic and scaled off AP, he'd have damaged the front line, and hopefully killed a carry with a lichbane proc or two. If E was physical and scaled off AD, he did damage to the front line and killed a carry.

I find people get too obsessed about the laning phase, when it's roughly half the game. I'm not countering your suggestions outright as "those are wrong," by the way. I think Trynd does need work, and your suggestions seem solid, I just want to make sure all the bases are covered.


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King GrimPhenom

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Tryndamere is fine

People don't know what they're doing with him. At all. He takes too much skill to lane and use compared to the newer top laners


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Norak

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Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by theDreamer View Post
Sorry about irking you, the "see the problem?" was genuine. Too hard to convey tone in text.

I see about AP trynd. Still wonky, not quite as viable as your standard APs, but like Yi, one ability with a stupid good AP ratio and something can work sometimes.

There is nothing wrong with AP/Mid champions dealing physical damage, by the way (I mean, thematically, sure, but Zed and Talon are AD Casters and can be played mid and deal mostly physical damage). I disagree about Amumu thematically dealing physical damage, but to be fair, Theme <<<<<< Balance, and yeah, since Trynd has literally 1 ability that deals damage, it (maybe) should be magic, but I accept the point.

While Spinning Slash dealing magic helps his early game, it hurts his late game. Not playing Trynd much, I'm curious which is better.

I'm not really sure what an Melee AD Carry does versus a Bruiser, which is a problem with Melee ADCs, but, treating them like a bruiser (kill the enemy ADC), we get as follows.

In a teamfight, I assume (AD) Trynd would: Spin towards the Ranged AD or AP carry, moving through and damaging their tanky frontline, and then smack the carry with his sword until he has to ult, hopefully he gets a kill or two while his team is dealing damage to everyone else, spin out, heal, and live.

If E was magic, and scaled off AD, he'd have dealt 0 damage to the front line. If E was magic and scaled off AP, he'd have damaged the front line, and hopefully killed a carry with a lichbane proc or two. If E was physical and scaled off AD, he did damage to the front line and killed a carry.

I find people get too obsessed about the laning phase, when it's roughly half the game. I'm not countering your suggestions outright as "those are wrong," by the way. I think Trynd does need work, and your suggestions seem solid, I just want to make sure all the bases are covered.
Late game Trynd is a God among men, no Trynd uses his spin late game to damage, except to farm minions, and guess what? They have no mr, and lots of armor. Having it deal magic damage only does good things for AD Trynd, with the exception of facing someoen who is, for some reason or another, stacking MR. If that's the case, though, he can just auto attack them, it's not hard. Late game Trynd is wasting time if he spins, he just auto attacks teams to death in seconds.

AD Trynd players would try to attack the nearest target, just getting whatever damage off they could until they see a carry out of position. In a teamfight, E does little damage as Physical or as Magic, AD Trynd is 100% about auto attacks in teamfights, E is only used to position himself closer to carries.

AP Trynd is more about kiting and "drive-by's", he would spin through and lichbane however he can safely, until, much the same situation, a carry is out of position and he can Deathfire + Spin + Lichbane.

So basically, E is only important to AP trynd late game, AD Trynd only uses it for position, not damage. Even with the current E, which scales 1.2:1, you'll notice lategame it does near to no damage and is completely ignored on AD Trynd (when it comes to bursting people). He will simply E towards them and Hard crit them 2-3 times before they die.

No problem, I love a good argument and I love getting my opinion out there. Thanks for being interested enough in the first place!

p.s Oh and the laning phase is important on Trynd. If AD trynd can farm, then mid-late game is a carryfest. AP Trynd always stomped his lane so hard they were thousands of gold behind in items, so laning was also pretty big for him. I think that's where he got a lot of his viability, just from winning his lane so hard he countered most champions that they were not useful mid game.


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Norak

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12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimPhenom View Post
Tryndamere is fine

People don't know what they're doing with him. At all. He takes too much skill to lane and use compared to the newer top laners
Tryndamere is easier now, it's boring. He's decently strong, but just so unreliable. His damage needs to be normalised and his skill cap needs to be raised, to make him mroe fun again.


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Ricky Spanish

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Senior Member

12-03-2012

Buff his raging pectorals.


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theDreamer

Senior Member

12-03-2012

When I say E is dealing damage, I mean to the front lines.

Literally he uses E as a dash to get next to the ranged squishies in the back. This means passing through the front lines. While it may not be a focus of damage, dealing some is better than dealing none. Since most tanks on the front line of 150-200 resistances, he needs penetration for it to deal any damage to them. ArPen synergizes with his auto attacks, while MPen would synergize with nothing (unless when S3 hits, Lich Bane is magic damage on auto attacks. I believe it's that way at the moment in PBE).


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Arächnophobia

Member

12-03-2012

To be blunt no, only way they'll change him is if you can prove to a red that the red thinks he is bad.

DON'T ASK ME HOW, but ..just ...look at sejuani..and yi.


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FIatulence

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Recruiter

12-03-2012

read the whole thing

and i would not read again, although i agree with the post


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theDreamer

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arächnophobia View Post
To be blunt no, only way they'll change him is if you can prove to a red that the red thinks he is bad.

DON'T ASK ME HOW, but ..just ...look at sejuani..and yi.
Yi had a higher win rate than Diana in IPL5.

And he hard carried the games he won.