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Cassiopeia Jungle. Let's be Open Minded and Talk

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XxxKarma

Senior Member

05-17-2013

Quote:
PogoPogoPogoPogo:
Here are some numbers, for starters, that you're missing.

Cassiopeia:
Lv1 Health: 380
Lv1 HRegen: 4.85
Lv1 Armor: 11.5
Lv1 MovSpd: 310

Skarner
Lv1 Health: 440
Lv1 HRegen: 7.5
Lv1 Armor: 19
Lv1 MovSpd: 320


You can compare these numbers to other junglers too, and I'd argue that these are the 4 most important stats to a jungler, but the point is, in every single category, Cassiopeia is worse than Skarner. Less health, health regen, and armor means it's extraordinarily difficult for her to deal with jungle mobs, and less movement speed means that it takes her longer to get from place to place.

EDIT: It's also extraordinarily worth noting that while the jungle will offer more gold/experience in season 3, the monsters will also be more difficult. This makes base health, hregen, and armor even more important stats.[/


lets do a little no brainer here:

Skarner = Bruiser/tank
Cass = Mage/ NOT tank

i think we have a winner. You just lost 1 MILLION cool points for compairing stats of two completely different types of champs.. a tank to a mage. OH I guess everyone forgets that her Q gives her movement speed if it hits a champ so theres her gap closer... oh well guess theres a blond moment for everyone posting here.

Moving between jungle camps is NEXT to irrelivant. if you are spamming spells as skarner to get to another camp you are wasting mana. therefore he has 10 more MS for all of what 3 seconds? so he moves 30 spaces more than cass? she attacks the camps from a range anyways and can get them before skarner even reaches the camp. COMPLETELY irrelivant data.

As for the survival factor wow just wow. Get a little help on the first couple camps and the rest is irrelivant. she can hold her own and chug pots for the first jungle clear and not care about the rest. She has Equal clear time having three available spells for damage two of which are Aoe's that deal high damage since camps have no MR, as well as the ability to get into a lane with a slow before skarner can (since you want to compair these two).

She can toss her slow before skarner can even get into the lane as well as have the same movement speed from Blast and from a range spam her even faster damage fangs than skarners very short range spash then ult from a greater range than skarner and stun them while still spamming her damage... try again.

MAGE that also jungles:

Elise
Health 395
Health regen. 4.7
Armor 12.65
MS is irrelivant if they get a booster.

stats look pretty close to :

Cassiopeia:
Lv1 Health: 380
Lv1 HRegen: 4.85
Lv1 Armor: 11.5

THERES a compairison. Plus lets do a lookover for Cass jungling:

Start off with a noxious blast for the initial gank NOT mias because its got a delay... they will "see" it comming but none too late, then toss a Mias instantly on the spot behind the target where it will run into it. With the blast you have movement speed to catch them now and spam fang. ONCE they burn flash come back and regank like EVERY OTHER jungler will do OR on the second attempt start off with the blast for the speed, slow them then ult them to their death and spam fang till they melt.

Noobs. Get vision wards like everyone else or gankers are ALL useless regardless of them being Cass or skarner. This thread's post was back in december but the rules havent changed since then and it was viable then and its viable now.

And for the love of god to anyone who reads this post KILL ADC's first, not let them kill your team in the back chillin' while drinkin a soda afking.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

05-17-2013

First off, this is a massive necro.

Second off, I wasn't intending to compare Cassiopeia only to Skarner directly. I was intending to compare Cassiopeia to ALL junglers.

Now, please look. Before your post, the most recent post in this thread is from December 1st. This thread is nearly 7 months old. There have been changes to the jungle, changes to items, changes to champs, and changes to the meta. At the time my post was made, Elise was not yet released, and even Diana wasn't really considered a very strong jungle.

But I can still point out a few things about Cassiopeia, especially in the direct comparison to Elise.



First and absolutely foremost, movement speed is absolutely not irrelevant. The only champion I can think of for which you can say "movement speed is irrelevant" would be a champion like Nunu who is taking a movement speed ability at level 2 that he can buff himself with and doesn't need to hit an enemy champion with to get the speed boost. Or perhaps Rammus, who again, gets a speed boost without having to hit an enemy champion. The movement speed question is not about the ability to gank. It's a factor in ganking, sure, but a slower champion can just buy boots early to make up for that. It's a question of clear times. No one starts boots in the jungle, and a good chunk of your clear time is spent walking from camp to camp.

So that's why movement speed is important.


Now then, as for the Elise/Cassiopeia comparison, here's the deal. I'll assume your base stats for each are accurate. Now then, Elise has her ultimate (that's not really an ultimate) from level 1. It gives her (from level 1 to 5) an extra 10 armor. So while level 1 is kind of irrelevant, because anyone can clear a small camp and a buff camp with a leash, when Elise heads to the first solo camp, she's got an AoE ability, two abilities that do percentage health, an attack speed steroid (which is the absolute strongest type of ability in the jungle right now with machete), and she's tankier than Skarner (22.65 armor for Spider Elise vs 19 armor for Skarner).

Additionally, when Elise comes to gank, she brings a stun, two percentage current health abilities, an AoE ability, and an excellent gap closer (that is extraordinarily strong when diving turrets). Cassiopeia brings a slow that can be walked out of and a movement speed steroid.



EDIT: Okay, and just for kicks, let's assume that Elise/Cassiopeia both got a smiteless blue buff... and let's forget that Elise moves faster than Cassiopeia in Spider form and so would get to the red buff faster (assuming a wolves/blue/red camp order). Let's say they both started at the same time...

Elise starts with Volatile Spiderling, which does 75 AoE damage (plus 80% AP), then Neurotoxin for 40 damage plus 8% (plus 3% of AP) of the target's current health, then switches to Spider form, does Venomous Bite for 60 damage plus 8% (plus 3% of AP) of the target's missing health, then activates Skittering Frenzy for a 60% attack speed boost (plus self-heal for 4 for every attack by her or her spiderlings). The attack speed buff last for 3 seconds. And let's keep in mind Elise's base AD is 47.5, but would be 50.5 at level 2, and then switching to Spider Form knocks it up to 60.5 (plus 30% of AP), plus her two spiderlings are attacking for 10 damage each (plus 10% AP). Also... her spiderlings can tank the jungle monsters to help keep Elise at higher health in order to go for a gank. Also... Elise uses no mana in Spider Form, which is what she primarily kills camps in, so she always has full mana for ganks, with or without blue buff.

Meanwhile...

Cassiopeia starts with what... Miasma? Then takes Twin Fang. So you drop Miasma, and if you keep that poison up 100% of the time, you do 25 damage per second (plus 15% AP), then you spam Twin Fang for 50 damage (plus 55% AP) damage twice per second. Overall, 125 damage per second. That's a pretty high rate.


I don't feel like doing the math, but it just feels like Cassiopeia comes out of smiteless blue -> red overall slower and at lower health than Elise. And with a weaker gank.


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Dnote

Member

05-17-2013

doesn't matter
any standard jungle will farm you instead of buffs.


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SHMEEPS phd

Senior Member

05-17-2013

Most junglers would just kill her at her red then snowball from there.

She's too weak in the first 5 minutes, which is crucial for a jungler


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