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Cassiopeia Jungle. Let's be Open Minded and Talk

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Best Furry NA

Member

11-30-2012

Hey guys.

So, I was watching jungling S3 videos last night. Someone (Stonewall) was testing a ton out, doing clears on the PBE, and such. Cassiopeia, apparently, is fast at clearing now and then.

Why not play her as a jungler? The only reason given was that she doesn't fit.

Before I continue, I want to emphasize open-mindedness. Many things would be laughable, except higher elo players try them out and prove how good they are. People then follow what they do, but are scared to try something new. Until a high elo player does. Let's skip that process, and just discuss. Maybe this is good, maybe it's bad.

Now, let's look at her kit, and some other common junglers.

Quote:
Cassiopeia:
Q: Damage, and movement speed boost.
W: A slow with an increasing size.
E: Damage. Sorry, I need to say it like Phreak. Tons of damage.
R: A stun at best and a slow at worst.


Quote:
Skarner:
W: Damage/Shield, and movement speed boost.
Q: AoE slow.
E: Sustain, but good Skarner players won't pick it until 13 due to how weak it is.
R: A moveable suppress.
Honestly I think he does work better at ganking than Cassiopeia could ever hope, but Cass offers a different, more offensive option. Remember I am suggesting something new, not saying it is better/worse than other specific ones-- just viable.


Quote:
Nocturne:
Q: Damage, and movement speed boost.
W: CC, assuming they don't break it by getting away.
E: Spell shield and potential steroid.
R: Gap closer, and sight reduction. The scary effect could psychologically do more at lower elo.


Quote:
Warwick:
I am bringing him up simply because people downplay him, but he is considered to be a good natural jungler. Yes he can lane well, but he is a jungler that operates best post-6. He has a hard cc, and a movement speed boost. Cass has movement speed, slow, and either hard cc or a good slow, that can affect multiple.


Quote:
Shaco:
Q: Flash+Invisibility. Mobility without being seen.
W: Fear
E: Slow.
R: Too many uses to count, but ones that typically help survive or nuke in a gank, not so much to control one.


But why jungle with her? Well, if you have an AD mid (Talon, Zed, etc), or hell if you just want to, depending on the elo. She has good cc and abilities, along with great nuking potential. Even if they Flash away last second, poisons can still kill them.

How would you gank? I'd say wait in a bush (like most junglers), then toss out Miasma-- not hard to hit. Then use Noxious Blast, and spam Twin Fang. Ulti if necessary to secure, and wait for it, Tons of Damage. With your ulti, even if your side is extended, you can even Flash over and use it, still possibly securing a kill.

What items? Honestly the same as normal, but I'd rush a Rylai's with Blue Buff handed to you, and get a Chalice after that. Rylais gives good survivability, and another slow.

What about counter jungling? Someone does it to you? You're Cass! Nuke them to high hell. Or don't if you're scared >.> You want to, to them? I'd be careful here. Getting away without your ulti could be very difficult, and could put you in a world of hurt.

What about Dragon control? Gank bot, have them help. GG. Or, you know, ward it and then come in for a surprise.

So... Discuss.

Edit: AD Bottom provided some good points, so I'd like to expand.

Competitively, this could be chosen to psyche out the enemy team, so they counterpick you as a mid, and your true mid counters them, hurting them and helping your team. Also, experience? S2, yes, she lacks as much as she'd wish in the jungle. S3, it will be closer to mid. Not the same, but better.


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adc

Member

11-30-2012

Cassiopeia doesn't do all that much damage early on in the game. If you got counterjungled by a hero like Olaf, they'd just walk up and kill you. The only heroes that you'd be able to duel effectively early on would be heroes that shouldn't be counterjungling anyway.

Her ganks would be subpar. She has no form of hard CC to keep a hero in place - you'd have to flash ult and catch them offguard, and even then they might not die if they're fairly tanky. Her slow would be hard to land if the enemy was playing somewhat safe.

Her skills aren't actually that highly ranged. Her Q has a very nice range, but you have to be up close to cast her W before it expands and her E. You can't very well gank because 3/4 of your DPS requires you to be basically beside them.

And the biggest reason? She's better mid lane. Cassiopeia shines when given levels and farm. A fast, strong jungler can keep up in levels, but won't be anywhere close in farm to the mid lane. Why have two heroes working at one and a half efficiency with Cass in the jungle when you could have two heroes working at full efficiency with Cass mid?


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Best Furry NA

Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
AD Bottom:
Cassiopeia doesn't do all that much damage early on in the game. If you got counterjungled by a hero like Olaf, they'd just walk up and kill you. The only heroes that you'd be able to duel effectively early on would be heroes that shouldn't be counterjungling anyway.

Her ganks would be subpar. She has no form of hard CC to keep a hero in place - you'd have to flash ult and catch them offguard, and even then they might not die if they're fairly tanky. Her slow would be hard to land if the enemy was playing somewhat safe.

Her skills aren't actually that highly ranged. Her Q has a very nice range, but you have to be up close to cast her W before it expands and her E. You can't very well gank because 3/4 of your DPS requires you to be basically beside them.

And the biggest reason? She's better mid lane. Cassiopeia shines when given levels and farm. A fast, strong jungler can keep up in levels, but won't be anywhere close in farm to the mid lane. Why have two heroes working at one and a half efficiency with Cass in the jungle when you could have two heroes working at full efficiency with Cass mid?


Olaf could counterjungle her easily, yes. But some other ones not so much. Nocturne? Depends on when he gets his shield-- try not to fall for it and wait half a second. Skarner? He wont kill you early game before your team comes, if you ping. Amumu? Same. Sorry for butchering his name, I know I spelled that wrong. Also, apparently she clears so fast, counter jungling would be kinda hard to do for that. So it could be a problem, but situational on levels, ganks, the enemy composition, etc.

Ganks would be subpar. She has slows, and can deal a ton of damage. She lacks hard cc, but in return gives high damage to offset it. They're slowed, and your teamates, and you, punish them. Her W is easy to land, you just might have to wait a moment or two before using it. Like a lot of junglers do. Yes she's a medium ranged mage, but most junglers are melee. So... It kind of offsets it there.

And yes, she probably would be better mid. But, if you get counterpicked you could do this. There are ways to avoid this, but not always. You could also do this so that your mid can beat theirs. How? If you're first or second to pick, pick Cassiopeia. They think you're going mid, and pick someone to counter her. Then your true mid counters that, and they're baffled. You may lose out in efficiency, but your mid becomes better, and theirs worse. ALSO, that is Season 2. Season 3, the jungle will be better for boosting experience, closer to the lanes.


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KeanePoK

Junior Member

11-30-2012

Because she is a far more reliable middle lane.


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Best Furry NA

Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
KeanePoK:
Because she is a far more reliable middle lane.

Just addressed that.


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adc

Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Glacialwrath:
Olaf could counterjungle her easily, yes. But some other ones not so much. Nocturne? Depends on when he gets his shield-- try not to fall for it and wait half a second. Skarner? He wont kill you early game before your team comes, if you ping. Amumu? Same. Sorry for butchering his name, I know I spelled that wrong. Also, apparently she clears so fast, counter jungling would be kinda hard to do for that. So it could be a problem, but situational on levels, ganks, the enemy composition, etc.

Ganks would be subpar. She has slows, and can deal a ton of damage. She lacks hard cc, but in return gives high damage to offset it. They're slowed, and your teamates, and you, punish them. Her W is easy to land, you just might have to wait a moment or two before using it. Like a lot of junglers do. Yes she's a medium ranged mage, but most junglers are melee. So... It kind of offsets it there.

And yes, she probably would be better mid. But, if you get counterpicked you could do this. There are ways to avoid this, but not always. You could also do this so that your mid can beat theirs. How? If you're first or second to pick, pick Cassiopeia. They think you're going mid, and pick someone to counter her. Then your true mid counters that, and they're baffled. You may lose out in efficiency, but your mid becomes better, and theirs worse. ALSO, that is Season 2. Season 3, the jungle will be better for boosting experience, closer to the lanes.


Let's look at the current junglers:

Fiddlesticks. Medium range fear, but his ult is a free flash with a bunch of deeps attached to it.

Hecarim. This guy has a long ass initiate ult plus he's a ****ing horse. He's fast.

Warwick. Medium range, long disable ultimate. Can be flashed into with no trouble.

Jarvan IV. Medium range disable combo, medium range ult. Can easily combo -> ult and force a flash from the brush.

Shyvana. This ***** is fast. She does a bunch of damage. And her ult is a fairly long range spell with a small disable.

Mundo. Fairly long range, strong slow. Good damage. Good speed.

Shaco. Fairly long range stealth + blink. Decent slow.

Nocturne. Mediocre gap closer on his ult, MS increase, and fear.

Rengar. Slow or snare + the jump + burst.

Xin Zhao. Knockup + gap closer.

Amumu. Great gap closer + his ult.

Skarner. Permaslow + his ult.

Maokai. Nice gap closer with his W, his Q is a disable.

Lee Sin. Great gap closers, his ult is a knockback, his E is a slow.

Cassiopeia? Medium range slow + damage, iffy ult. Her ult is good if it hits and basically negated by flash if it doesn't.

And what if they pick Anivia? Diana? Orianna? Any of the strongest AP mids right now don't have counterpicks. Even picking a hero that can be counterpicked (say, Katarina) by another hero (say, Diana) isn't going to guarantee a win. The Katarina may just be a better player - and even if she's not better, she can still stick the lane out and farm and be useful late game. Counterpicking does not mean you win instantly.

I would wager 50% + of the heroes listed in this post could take Cassiopeia 1 on 1 in the jungle right at the start fast enough that lanes couldn't help.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Here are some numbers, for starters, that you're missing.

Cassiopeia:
Lv1 Health: 380
Lv1 HRegen: 4.85
Lv1 Armor: 11.5
Lv1 MovSpd: 310

Skarner
Lv1 Health: 440
Lv1 HRegen: 7.5
Lv1 Armor: 19
Lv1 MovSpd: 320



You can compare these numbers to other junglers too, and I'd argue that these are the 4 most important stats to a jungler, but the point is, in every single category, Cassiopeia is worse than Skarner. Less health, health regen, and armor means it's extraordinarily difficult for her to deal with jungle mobs, and less movement speed means that it takes her longer to get from place to place.


EDIT: It's also extraordinarily worth noting that while the jungle will offer more gold/experience in season 3, the monsters will also be more difficult. This makes base health, hregen, and armor even more important stats.


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Best Furry NA

Member

11-30-2012

Skarner is meant to output less and be more tanky, but those stats do worry me.

AD Bottom, you also have good points....

Hmm. I suppose she's viable, but subpar?


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Glacialwrath:
Hmm. I suppose she's viable, but subpar?

No. These words mean basically the opposite thing.

"Viable" means that they will perform on at least a par level.

"Subpar" means that they perform at a level below par.

Par, and I'm not sure whether this word existed or not before golf, but it essentially means average. It's a grade of C. This is a level of play that is acceptable, and you can win games with it.

But Subpar, this means that if all 10 players are of equal skill level, all the lanes are perfectly balanced, and the enemy jungler is just as good with his champ as you are with Cassiopeia, but he has a top tier jungler like Lee Sin to your Cassiopeia, your team is going to lose a majority of the games because Lee Sin is a top tier jungler and Cassiopeia is subpar.


Is she capable of jungling? Sure. She can make it through the jungle. Annie can make it through the jungle. I've seen Graves make it through the jungle. With a good leash on wolves/blue or wraiths/red, essentially every champion is capable of farming the jungle and performing ganks.

The question isn't really whether or not Cassiopeia is better mid or jungle. That question is kind of irrelevant. The question is, what are you losing by taking Cassiopeia in the jungle when you could've had Lee Sin, Skarner, or any other top tier jungler? And the answer is: a lot.

Take Jax, for comparison. He's a better top laner than a jungler. But I don't have a problem running him in the jungle. Sure, he'd be better of top lane, but you're not losing that much by having Jax in the jungle versus Lee Sin in the jungle.


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adc

Member

11-30-2012

Imagine Warwick. He's not that great, just for different reasons. Warwick can easily clear the jungle at full or near full health. But he can't apply pressure early on.

A strong jungler depends on two things. One, what that jungler can do. Warwick, for example, offers a high sustain, easy jungle. He has pretty good ganks past level 6. He deals decent damage, and can lock down the enemy carry in a fight. And two, what the jungler needs to be doing. Warwick, to use the same example, does not offer early pressure. He really has nothing before level 6. His ganks are bad if the enemy doesn't let you walk up and apply red buff, because he has no CC. His damage is alright, but it's really more sustain than bursty like Lee or Rengar.


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