New Karma Support Guide

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Aris

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iateurcookie View Post
I can tell you, my good sir. The reason it works is positioning. How often do you see Janna standing out front in a team fight? Never. Why? She would die and she would be absolutely, 100% useless there. Karma on the other hand is a meat shield. Malph ult? Karma. Amumu bandage-tossing? Karma. Their ADC poking your team with damage? Karma. Enemy trying to get close to try to run past you to nuke your ADC? Karma with an early W before they get close. People wanna waste their ults on the first team member they see? Tanky gahdamn Karma. You may be able to get that from Janna with a shield and a tanky build, but she wouldn't have a % health heal. Same with any other support. And as soon as one of their damage sources step out that you want to kill, easy tag with W, and easy initiate for your team. If their squishy runs back through their team, it slows half of their team and you get an EASY initiate onto their main source of damage. Keep in mind also that you'll probably have 2 other players on your team, top and jungle, who are also tanky as hell and that your heal will work well on. A 3-person meat shield is excellent in a team fight, and if you're an actual 5-person team you can coordinate so that you're all tanky (maybe minus your ADC) so that your % heal will work very well even without the AP. Again, supports never get a ton of AP unless insanely fed anyway, and my build has a free spot open in the end so you can put a deathcap there if you want. My build is about getting ahead early by building a tanky spec that forces engagements and allows your ADC to survive while you kill theirs. AP Karma can't tank turrets for a very long time, tanky Karma can. AP Karma can't be a meat shield and therefore can't be a large part of being a good initiator in team fights. Tanky Karma can.

I am not saying not to play her as AP, do whatever you want, but tanky Karma is badass, and for people who don't know how to play her this is a good guide. It is an easy to play spec and it is very effective, I think more so than AP Karma, but I am not here to say "you have to play this way!" I am just saying if you want a good way to play her and have not figured her out and can't make her viable, this is a good intro guide to get you started.
How do you figure janna isn't in the front lines of a teamfight? End game with janna i've usually got around 3k hp with a slot for wards up, and to get the most use out of janna's ult you have to be as close to the enemy as possible. In fact, I usually get pretty tanky on all the supports I play just by building typical aegis and health aura items, not full on tank but enough to take hits and still get my utility out there, I just don't see how karma's heal or shield or bond is gonna save a teamfight when she hasn't got any ap by end game.

I'm by no means trying to underrate the way you play her I'm simply sharing my opinion for discussion and my point of views on why support/tank karma, in my opinion, is useless compared to her ap counterpart.

The most joyous moments i've had playing karma is having over 600 AP, shielding the ADC and half their hp bar turned white, or healing the team enough to actually put someone who was going to retreat back into a fight in just 1 go. Or going to fight someone 1v1, they think they're going to win but your passive kicks in and you shield your entire health bar and destroy them. I believe her passive is important to her playstyle and building her tanky just makes her passive useless to her

and initiate fights w/ karma? im not sure, i think it's almost impossible to not have a champ on the team who can initiate a fight better than she can


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Arcane Azmadi

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Here's my Karma guide:

1) Don't play Karma until the rework comes out.

The end.

And if you MUST play Karma, playing her as a support bot is possibly the WORST way to play her.


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LostRaider

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Senior Member

11-30-2012

I actually disagree with leaving your W skill till last. It is actually really strong, especially in lane. Mantra W the enemy carry in lane gives you a strong slow on them while you charge at em with your shield and Q, all while speeding up your carry for the chase.

I love support Karma, but her most glaring weakness in lane is her auto attack range. I'm just gonna be sad saying goodbye to the mantra system that I love.


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Iateurcookie

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayzial View Post
How do you figure janna isn't in the front lines of a teamfight? End game with janna i've usually got around 3k hp with a slot for wards up, and to get the most use out of janna's ult you have to be as close to the enemy as possible. In fact, I usually get pretty tanky on all the supports I play just by building typical aegis and health aura items, not full on tank but enough to take hits and still get my utility out there, I just don't see how karma's heal or shield or bond is gonna save a teamfight when she hasn't got any ap by end game.

I'm by no means trying to underrate the way you play her I'm simply sharing my opinion for discussion and my point of views on why support/tank karma, in my opinion, is useless compared to her ap counterpart.

The most joyous moments i've had playing karma is having over 600 AP, shielding the ADC and half their hp bar turned white, or healing the team enough to actually put someone who was going to retreat back into a fight in just 1 go. Or going to fight someone 1v1, they think they're going to win but your passive kicks in and you shield your entire health bar and destroy them. I believe her passive is important to her playstyle and building her tanky just makes her passive useless to her

and initiate fights w/ karma? im not sure, i think it's almost impossible to not have a champ on the team who can initiate a fight better than she can
Gahh I give up. Sir, I offer you the "try it" challenge. I am not trying to be snooty, but everyone here has not even tried the build yet. No one likes support so it will take you like 2 seconds. I recommend trying it with a Vayne, if possible, but anyone will be alright. Again, sorry if I come of as a snooty person, but you really must try it. I have to say my most joyous moments are tagging someone, walking up to them under a turret and having my team kill them, and then doing it 5 more times, so that they stop feeling safe even while under their turrets because they know your team will just pounce on and murder them.

If you give the "try it" challenge a go, and you do not think it is effective, I will eat my sock. And by my sock I mean probably a donut or something for breakfast, but the sock has a better mental image. I will also give you my internet cookie for the day, which I don't just give to anyone. It is a special, magical cookie.


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Ulap

Senior Member

12-01-2012

I play karma support at 1800 elo and i duo que with a vayne and it is the best thing ever i 90% of this build i do tabi omen super chalice and rev but then i finish with FON and deathcap


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Arcane Azmadi

Senior Member

12-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orming View Post
I play karma support at 1800 elo and i duo que with a vayne and it is the best thing ever i 90% of this build i do tabi omen super chalice and rev but then i finish with FON and deathcap
Liar.


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Yoruichi

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Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iateurcookie View Post
A fine point, but the problem is that she is not that great mid (not the worst, but gets pwn'd by say a good Kassadin or any number of other mids, especially like Ryze or someone with a stun), and I am assuming you're building AP since you're mid or else you'd be useless since you already have a support, meaning your Karma is squishy. Squishy Karma starts falling off mid game, because you're so squishy in team fights that you can't jump up front, you're forced to sit back and heal because the range on her Q would likely get you killed if used to DPS, and people can just chain stun or silence her and easily kill her because of very little tankiness. She is far from the best healer in the game, and you'll already have one support if you're the one going mid, so why would you pick a team comp with two squishy supports? With tanky support Karma you can get ahead in lane and act as a meat shield and really good initiator in team fights and give really good auras to your team.

Since she falls off of the AP role mid-game, what about support? No good support champ takes gold away from the ADC, because they don't need to, because they get kill assist gold or GP/10 items. This Karma build (tanky support) is built for kill assists. It does not need a ton of gold. Your shields are more effective for you because you're not taking as much damage so you don't need that stronger heal or stronger shield, you take less damage and have a ton of health and turrets also do less damage to you and you heal for a flat% of your health, you don't really need to AP once you yourself have a lot of health, partially because Karma's Q heals 5% health in addition to base and %AP, and the strategy with the build forces people to use their abilities on you, or else you get free harass and win anyway, and since that is the case, your ADC gets free damage on them all day errday because you have a 5 second slow that also speeds up your ADC, and the early Shurelya's makes this even easier AND makes it extremely easy to escape. So you are taking little damage, forcing them to waste abilities on you and your ADC can then counter-initiate immediately afterward and get the heavy damage that will force them out of lane or kill them.

edit:
She is also great at supporting ranged with this build as well because of the counter-initiate she has with her W. Someone jumps into get your ADC you just slow them and shield your ADC. While other champs may have extra utility on their shields and heals, Karma is the only one that actually has a shield and a heal. You come out fairly even in the trade at worst, but Karma's shield and heal is on a shorter CD than any other support's combination of the two, so if they stay in the fight, they lose. This is in part because you're tanky as a mofo, and you can get your ADC out of range of theirs with your W and tank hits and do damage, so they have to attack you then your ADC can just come right back and finish up.
I'm only going to respond to 2 things, because after reading the rest of this thread, you're extremely combative with anybody who disagree's with you. But believe me, I disagree with 90% of everything you mentioned. Like her being an initiator (she can be a bait, but that's COMPLETELY different).

So first thing is, don't be daft. Karma lose to Kassadin? I could understand saying almost anybody else, but Kassadin? NO. When I intend to take Karma mid, I ban Diana. She is 100% quite literally my ONLY fear in the game as Karma. If you consider yourself a Kassadin player, I'll gladly 1v1 you with my Karma to show you just how badly Kassadin loses that lane.

2nd, she is a BRAWLER support, not a ranged support. Brawlers engage and are in melee range so they can apply your leash easily without putting themselves out of position. Furthermore, they are already in position for your shield bombs to actually hit more than 1 person. They can also peel for you, since you are empowering them and won't have these spells for personal use.

Just going to throw this out as well, even though I only wanted to respond to 2 points. She dominates all top heroes. She crushes brawlers. If I'm denied mid at champ select, and I'm dead set on playing Karma anyway, I'll just take her top and bully anybody out of the lane. You simply have to pick up your spirit bond earlier than when you go mid to help you avoid ganks.


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deathmage390

Senior Member

12-03-2012

i want to try karma but if i like her ill try this as a off build idea


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