Udyr, Singed and AP scaling.

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Suelerium

Senior Member

10-08-2010

I have been playing with Udyr a little, and I kind of like it. But I wonder why every build I read says that his abilities scale AP poorly

My main is Singed. Everyone seems to agree that he has to play AP/Tank, and that's what I do. But if you watch Singed's AP ratio, they do not look good : poison scales at 0,3, Fling at 1, the two other abilities don't scale. But every Singed player knows the trick : poison can tick 6 times, making the effective AP ratio on poison potentially 1.8 (not taking MR into account).

It seems to me that the same can be said with Udyr. OK Phoenix active scales at 0.25. But it does it 5 times, making it 1.25. Such a ratio for AOE damage cannot be counted of that easily.

The same can be said for Turtle : it scales only at 0.5, but its cooldown is 6 seconds ; compare it with Janna's shield : AP ratio 0,9, CD 10 seconds. So more AP absorbs approximately the same damage over time (I don't say it is as good, Janna's shield is much better overall, but the bonus damage absorbed over time by having AP is very close).

So I was wondering what were your thoughts about this. 100 AP on Udyr means 125 more magic damage on AOE, 25 more magic damage AOE every 4th attack (phoenix passive) and 50 more damage absorbed every 6 seconds. Do you think it is worth the cost ?

I do not say it does, but the comparison with Singed scaling makes me wonder.


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PerAnon

Senior Member

10-08-2010

The main issue is that Udyr scales much better with resists.

Bear stance is his most useful asset to the team, and his main job in a fight is to run around and stun everyone, which means you want survivability first and foremost. Resists make his Turtle shield a lot more powerful as well, so it's pretty win/win to go tank.

For damage lategame, after you're tanky, on-hit effects and IAS compliment his stances' on-hit passives, meaning your best bet is to build a Bloodrazor. There really just isn't room for AP in Udyr's build. I could see an argument for Abyssal, perhaps, but I think that Banshee's/Aegis should always come first, and then you still have GA/QSS/FoN competing for Abyssal's slot if their team is heavy magic.


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no name Cola

Senior Member

10-08-2010

Singed poison does NOT have an effective ratio of 1.8, that would be unbelievably op.
It would only have an effective ratio of 1.8 if poison stacked, which would be op.

Basically, it was a ratio of 0.3 while they are in your poison and when they exit your poison they will take an additional 6 ticks which is about the equivalent of a 1.8 ratio.(it's also a dot and dots are much less effective than burst about 90% of the time, if you dont believe me see malhazar)


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bobarabara

Senior Member

10-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by no name Cola View Post
Singed poison does NOT have an effective ratio of 1.8, that would be unbelievably op.
It would only have an effective ratio of 1.8 if poison stacked, which would be op.

Basically, it was a ratio of 0.3 while they are in your poison and when they exit your poison they will take an additional 6 ticks which is about the equivalent of a 1.8 ratio.(it's also a dot and dots are much less effective than burst about 90% of the time, if you dont believe me see malhazar)
Consider a "singed burst" aka flinging your opponent into your poison trail. You'll consistently get around 6 ticks of damage since normally your opponent isn't dumb enough to stay in your poison trail. So on average one could say Singed's poison trail has an effective 1.8 ap scaling in a burst time frame, of course there is the accumulated mr for each tick which reduces it quit a bit.
In the "chasing scenario" where someones dumb enough to follow you for longer than 2 ticks then the ap ratios degenerate down to .3
In short Singed AP ratio is 1.8 but only for the first 2 seconds

I think the problem with udyr is that he has mixed roles, ap helps a little in damage and defense with his abilities' scaling, but then he is just mediocre at both, build him some hp or armor and you get a better gold to defense ratio- AP is very expensive compared to armor or hp and you only get 1:2 health to AP ratio for your spell anyway.
In terms of damage udyr's whole design scheme is that you can auto attack while having your abilities active, so it's better to enhance his autoattck with on hit effects


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Suelerium

Senior Member

10-09-2010

Thanks for these insights, especially the Singed info.

The first reason I started wondering about a Singed-like build for Udyr is because I really have trouble being a good tank late game with Udyr. Admitting the best way to use Udyr in late teamfights is to stun a lot of people, I find myself quite squishy for a tank, even with a full Banshee/Sunfire/Madred. The problem is that the only tanking ability Udyr has (Turtle) is an excellent damage mitigator mid game, but becomes kind of meh when you compare the damage absorbed (220) to the damage output of bursters/carries late game.

So I was wondering how to build Udyr to make it viable past 30 minutes.


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Supreme1337

Senior Member

10-09-2010

I guess you could build Udyr with AOE magic damage. Get a Sunfire Cape, Abyssal Scepter, and Rylai's Scepter and you'll be good to go. The magic damage from Sunfire would benefit from the MR reduction from Rylai's, and Rylai's and Abyssal together would give you some nice damage and AOE slow on you Phoenix stance. Also Abyssal gives MR so you would be a well rounded tank (armor and health from Sunfire, and MR from Abyssal).


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Mello

Recruiter

10-10-2010

If your going to put ap on Udyr, you might as well grab a Lichbane and do that 100 extra damage. Rageblade works well also if your stacking ap on him


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Suelerium

Senior Member

10-10-2010

Thanks for answers, I'll try the Sunfire/Abyssal/Rylas build right now.


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bobarabara

Senior Member

10-11-2010

Keep in mind using your ability as your primary damage absorber is just like buying expensive health, where as armor will be cheap health this build might be hard to pull off since it's pretty expensive, but maybe the aoe build will help you farm up a ton?
Tell us how it works in practice


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Pissfer

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Senior Member

10-11-2010

Another thing that I'm fairly sure of: Singed's Poison ticks twice a second, where the damage is for once a second, so that would make the AP ratio only 0.9


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