@Zileas - Counter Play

First Riot Post
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DagonTreant

Member

11-21-2012

RIP tryndamere, its been about a year since your "rework" to bottom tier, but maybe someday you will have less "counterplay" options available to your opponents.


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Gurei Fullbuster

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed, but that solution isn't worth making a class of characters viable, and it's not the only solution. At any rate, cost/benefit analysis of solutions is really important, and Tryndamere being in tournaments isn't worth the sheer amount of option removal BKB would bring for League.
If this has been addressed and I missed it, my apologies, but I just wanted to offer my 2 cents and ask (semi-rhetorically, though I'd like an answer I won't necessarily be looking for one, as I doubt the answer would satisfy me; moving on) why did you make Vampiric Scepter not able to be bought at the start of the game?

One of my greatest pleasures in LoL was getting on a smurf/PBE/my main and queue-ing for blind pick, grabbing tryndamere, and jungling. I have to start vampiric scepter though, because any other starting item leaves my early jungle too slow because I have to go back after my first clear (vamp scepter doesn't leave me with any more hp, but it means I can keep farming the jungle until I decide to go back because I can self-sustain once I hit lvl 4 with vamp scepter). The biggest weakness was I was very weak to invasions, which you don't really see on low lvl accounts/PBE/or blind pick. Now I understand Riot doesn't exist to satisfy *me*, but I can't see any considerable benefit from the change to vampiric scepter.


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Claw of Time

Member

11-21-2012

Gray ftw!


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
They are really cool characters... that have some toxic mechanics. I don't see the characters as huge mistakes, but I do see those mechanics as mistakes.
The combination of Irelia's mechanics does yield something both fun and balanceable--

Her role as this sort of inexorable steamroller that attacks from a bunch of different vectors is fine, because she really has to work to get that level of power.

Irelia is a heavy skill-scaling champion that requires very much understanding and input from the player to reach the level of rolling death you see lategame-- and she can be stopped by enemy skillful play along the way.

With Irelia, balance is really a numbers issue, in part because she requires a longer amount of time to do things.

Darius (particularly his ult) does not require nearly as much fine-control that Irelia does to reach his potential, either in laning or teamfights. He just gets a huge uncounterable nuke for free.

With of course the issue being that the ability is extremely difficult to balance due to the condensed effect-- either it's not satisfying for the player when used, or it's infuriating for the opponents.

There isn't really a middle ground, due to the nature of the effect.

Would it be better if it didn't gapclose? Maybe. That would require more skill from the player.

If it only reset when it dealt the exact killing blow, no 'grace period'? A step in the right direction-- demands more from the player in return for the effect.

That's one of the core differences between Irelia and Darius-- not the sustain, but the amount of effort the player needs to put in for the effect.

Similarly, Vlad gets a lot of return for comparatively little amount of gameplay, planning, timing.

But be careful not to go too far the other way: Sejuani's E is painfully dissatisfying because it requires too many conditions for what the effect provides.

You want to avoid requirements for having any effect at all, instead provide bonus effects to skilled players (like Zed clone use), wile retaining a baseline efficacy (all of Zed's abilities do something useful, even with zero clone-combo play).


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AHUEAHUEAHUEA

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Melee carries worked well in DotA because they had good stickiness in some form (bash, slows, moves fast, spammable blinkstrikes), and not everyone and their grandmother could jump and prance around with teleporting devices over walls. Also, abilities don't scale, so as the game got longer, it became harder and harder to instant burst kill the melee adc.

In LoL, you pretty much just get blown up unless you build tank, but then you're not really melee adc anymore and instead an ad bruiser, at which point you'd just play a real ad bruiser. Scaling abilities allows for was too much burst for a real traditional melee adc to survive at any stage of the game. Also, slows in this game is worth significantly less due to the existence of a laaaarge amount instant movement abilities.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a great counter-example, because in making him more fun for the Darius user, we removed a lot of counter-play - and this is why Darius sticks out like a sore thumb in League and is frustrating. It's also the reason I think Vlad and Irelia are poorer designs. Their kits limit counter-play, or another word, interesting interactivity between players.

Originally, for example, Darius had to get 10 stacks - something almost impossible, before his ult did anything crazy. When we got feedback about people not enjoying that, we overtuned the stack reliance back and made things less interactive, and ultimately weakening Darius' design. I'd like to go back and make it more like this when we have the time.

Well see 5 is way too small for how fast fight happen in SR. Fights are decided in between 3-15 seconds, 15 only happening for those poke disengage,reengage comps so its more like 3-6. Darius has very little counterplay in those 6 seconds. Your going to get at least 3 stacks on you, your going to get ulted if he wants to ult you.

The problem is when fight duration increases in maps like dominion and TT and you have time to get these stacks up on multiple people when the average person builds tankier (some comps will differ).

But Darius is hardly seen in competitive play (barely appearing a few times) and is seen all over in low level play and is considered broken in dominion being probably the number one pick or ban there.


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Corseth

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatebikeshorts View Post
Quick question: what's wrong with Irelia? I don't play her much but I don't really see the problem either. More curious than disagreeing.
Mobility, hard cc, sustain, all 3 damage types, farming mechanism, CC resistance, and even some ranged AOE damage to finish people off / wave clear. Basically her kit has -everything- in it. They've had to push her actual numbers relatively low to compensate. She's probably fine now but it took a long time to tweak her to this point.

The fundamental danger with an extremely all-purpose does-everything kit is either the numbers are so bad that they do everything but incredibly poorly, or the numbers are good and they do everything and so you'd never pick anyone else. It's a -very- difficult situation to balance because the character never really has a bad position.


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Darius [...] I'd like to go back and make it more like this when we have the time.
This is wonderful news, although I'd really like to hear that, "have the time," means a few weeks or a month, not months.

And for tanks, there is NO counterplay. You're a tank. You don't get to out-range his ult. You're supposed to eat those auto-attacks. You're supposed to be in range soaking up damage. You're not gonna be kiting the Darius in a full-blown team fight. Tanks tank.

Oh, and against a tank with 180 armor, his 700 true damage is the same as 2,000 physical damage. Just thought I'd through throw the number out there. And that's not some crazy out of the ordinary number. 180+ armor is pretty standard on many tanks.

I've stated many times that the problem is that Darius does true damage. Make it physical and the issue mostly goes away. Maybe up the damage to compensate. It's easier to tune that way, though, as he now has at least one more counter.

If you want a crazy number: against an alistar with 6 thornmails and his ult, it's the equivalent of roughly 20,000 physical damage. Haw.


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Dragonsafe

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Speaking of counterplay... yorick walked into a lane... and everyone left to get gp10 items.

Oh and i still don't know what to do when an enemy builds a frozen heart as a melee carry... just take it like a man? (ie. cry deeply)

And speaking of melee ad's... exhaust. **** exhaust. If i could remove 10 things from the game, all of them would be exhaust. I take cleanse and buy a qss and use them both on exhaust. I stay away from trynd and fiora just because of exhaust.

However randuin's is a much better item to go against as the melee ad... you don't feel practically useless all the time and can actually cleanse that ****.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
13 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel the Dragon View Post
@Zileas I'm semi-curious how you feel about Blitz Q, I know there is a counter to it, (dodge it) but its still one of the single most unfun things to play against(in my personal opinion) and in every draft and ranked game I've ever played blitz is either banned or picked.(I will admit I have not been above 1200 elo ever, I dont play much ranked) Is this an example of a bad mechanic? i mean there is no feeling of goodness for a person getting hooked because over half the time(95% of the time) getting hooked = dying and is purely satisfactory for the blitz player himself.
I actually think Blitz does well and the bans are mostly out of a general 'I don't want to deal with the risk and energy required' more than raw frustration. He does well on counterplay, and a lot of that has to come to how you alter your play as an individual and as a team knowing they have a blitz, and the nuance around baiting opportunities, intentionally taking a hook to initiate, etc that happens. I don't see a lot of blitzcrank stopping people from doing strategies, and more them adding to them...

I also think that teamplay, which wasn't discussed in this episode, is relevant. I like that teams can to a degree build strategies around the presence of a blitz, and try to cluster and wait for a hook with a blitz -- both very interesting situations in which people alter their play to then get benefit, and in a way that is nuanced, interesting, etc.