@Zileas - Counter Play

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Samflash3

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
They are really cool characters... that have some toxic mechanics. I don't see the characters as huge mistakes, but I do see those mechanics as mistakes.
Hey Zileas, i know this is probably not the right question or thread to ask but have you seen this thread? I'm trying to get a rioter or some players to consider it for season 3. Its about Sivir.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2821034


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Angel the Dragon

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

@Zileas I'm semi-curious how you feel about Blitz Q, I know there is a counter to it, (dodge it) but its still one of the single most unfun things to play against(in my personal opinion) and in every draft and ranked game I've ever played blitz is either banned or picked.(I will admit I have not been above 1200 elo ever, I dont play much ranked) Is this an example of a bad mechanic? i mean there is no feeling of goodness for a person getting hooked because over half the time(95% of the time) getting hooked = dying and is purely satisfactory for the blitz player himself.


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Warm One

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Here's a mechanic that I've always wanted in LoL counterplay: range upgrades.

Why has it never been implemented? I'm not saying to do crazy things, just a tad here or tad there, like with grievous wounds or % damage items. It would really make melee characters a lot more viable if the range upgrade was by a base amount.

Where, it wouldn't help ranged characters as much, but would be invaluable to melee that need to somehow catch ranged escape artists. Just a smidge more! Just like s3 boots of speed! Just 25 more range! Something like that! It would be near worthless to ranged, since they already have so much. Or just use some formula that gives it more benefit to melee.

Even if it doesn't work out, I would say pre-season is the best time to experiment with it now.


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Alyran

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel the Dragon View Post
@Zileas I'm semi-curious how you feel about Blitz Q, I know there is a counter to it, (dodge it) but its still one of the single most unfun things to play against(in my personal opinion) and in every draft and ranked game I've ever played blitz is either banned or picked.(I will admit I have not been above 1200 elo ever, I dont play much ranked) Is this an example of a bad mechanic? i mean there is no feeling of goodness for a person getting hooked because over half the time(95% of the time) getting hooked = dying and is purely satisfactory for the blitz player himself.
You're not supposed to feel good when you get hit by an ability. The point is that you can counter an ability and feel good for it. For example, a single minion can hard counter Blitz's hook. You can use Ez's blink or a spell shield to effectively block it. You could also walk sideways or flash before it hits you. Or, if you're a tank, maybe eat the hook and get a free initiation with a coordinated team.

In the case of Vlad's pool, there's literally nothing you can do but wait. With Darius' ult, most of the time if you do something that would counter it, it's instantly off cooldown and you die anyway (sometimes to the absurd bleed damage that for some reason isn't consumed when he ults).


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Robbynn

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Well, flash is a generally-must-have in LoL, but you should consider the net impact --

1) How nuanced is it to use? How fun is it to use?
2) How do opponents respond to it? How nuanced, competitive, skill differentiated, interesting, fun are these responses?
3) Of the above, does your ability to utilize this ability or the counters to it improve dramatically as you gain experience with the game?

I feel like flash evaluates pretty well on those dimensions. BKB on the other hand takes a bunch of partial counters to your carry (various ccs and nukes), and negates them, leaving a much narrower field of responses available. The ACT of BKB is satisfying, and it presents a 'counter' to the things that would counter the carry using it, but I would argue that a rich network of soft counters is more interesting than coming to a head of 'hard counter vs hard counter'.

We've tried to balance LoL as a network of rich partial counters. Granted, we still have some hard counters in some situations, but it's what we strive to do, and we've been very cautious on itemization and summoner spells in particular because of their potential to end up in every situation.

- Zileas
I will disagree with you about Flash. I tried it a few times and do not like it. I see even in the top pro team matches that Flash can fail. Yes there is skill to it at times for certain things. I just do not feel it is worth it as to me it is anti-fun. A player/team can do everything right and a summoner spell push ruins it. I understand everything for the positive side but to me it is not fun and can honestly say that the power of Flash is tempting but I feel is a crutch. I see so many players say that a champ can't be used if doesn't have Flash. That seems to say that something is wrong with it. People will rage about it not being used.


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AlexDnD2

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbynn View Post
I will disagree with you about Flash. I tried it a few times and do not like it. I see even in the top pro team matches that Flash can fail. Yes there is skill to it at times for certain things. I just do not feel it is worth it as to me it is anti-fun. A player/team can do everything right and a summoner spell push ruins it. I understand everything for the positive side but to me it is not fun and can honestly say that the power of Flash is tempting but I feel is a crutch. I see so many players say that a champ can't be used if doesn't have Flash. That seems to say that something is wrong with it. People will rage about it not being used.
Do you play ranked?


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Angel the Dragon

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyran View Post
You're not supposed to feel good when you get hit by an ability. The point is that you can counter an ability and feel good for it. For example, a single minion can hard counter Blitz's hook. You can use Ez's blink or a spell shield to effectively block it. You could also walk sideways or flash before it hits you. Or, if you're a tank, maybe eat the hook and get a free initiation with a coordinated team.

In the case of Vlad's pool, there's literally nothing you can do but wait. With Darius' ult, most of the time if you do something that would counter it, it's instantly off cooldown and you die anyway (sometimes to the absurd bleed damage that for some reason isn't consumed when he ults).
Ahh, but theres no way to counter a blitz hook through the wall from fog of war. You literally get caught from nowhere with no chance to dodge it, and then you die. Is that supposed to be fun? Plus eventually you will get hooked, no matter how good you are, and when you do its over for your whole team(or atleast they can't fight anymore). I may be biased but this particular mechanic bothers me, I wish his q was more like nauts. (gets stopped by walls, perhaps keep the fact that it pulls all the way to you simply because it goes so well with his kit) I feel he'd be more balanced in this case but it also may ruin him, his biggest strength is also his biggest flaw.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Melee carries are not that far from top-tier viability, and I'm hoping that some of the s3 changes will have their intended effect and resolve. It's a solvable problem from our perspective, and one we will solve. But it may take some iterations.
Zileas, how can you say they're "not that far off"? =/ Aside from champions that are going to get reworked (Karma, Heimer, etc), or ones that probably need it (Nasus)---Fiora, Yi, and Tryn have the worst win rate in high-Elo solo queue (also amongst the lowest popularity)---on top of this, they're never picked in competitive play.

Also, how is adding far more kiting in S3 going to solve the issue? The Frozen Gauntling thing effectively means a perma-slow, BotRK cann easily be picked up by ranged AD to ensure you don't get close---true shard ensures even a support or mage can even keep you from getting close. CC and AoE (which has increased in S3) will still crush you in no time flat, and you're forced into itemizing for survivability, which inevitably means your DPS will be less than that of ranged---which goes back to my original point---if you end up doing less damage and are melee---why bother playing a melee ADC over a ranged?


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DeathByWaffle

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Discussing with GDC for this year, it's looking good, but they have a very high standard, and I need to get my talk to the right point for the advisory board to be 100% confident. I think it will show up, but I have to meet the standard first
Well, if you do get to do a conference, could you have it recorded and posted on the LoL website for all of us?

Also, Riot should give us a free IP boost to celebrate it. Just cause.

(pls?)


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ihatebikeshorts

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
They are really cool characters... that have some toxic mechanics. I don't see the characters as huge mistakes, but I do see those mechanics as mistakes.
Quick question: what's wrong with Irelia? I don't play her much but I don't really see the problem either. More curious than disagreeing.