@Zileas - Counter Play

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24SevenEU

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yes, Poppy needs a rework. The live team is aware, and we will be accelerating our rate of remakes. I don't know when we will get to Poppy specifically, but you are totally correct that she needs a variety of tweaks and overhauls.
You didnt want volibear to come to the league....
Any changes with him? Seriously, he getting tweaked like his skills scaling with hp % or something?


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Nezuki

Member

01-02-2013

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Originally Posted by Live Lavish View Post
I have a question! what's the counterplaya to something like tf ult? every lane hugging their tower the second he's not in mid lane?
that is quite simple, actually, have someone hard CC him. this requires you to have your own map presence, and i know that often(main tank) it is better to sacrifice yourself to stop one enemy from using tele into a team fight than to let them enter the 4v4, making a 4v5 and later having to face them 1v5. i know lots of champs have some form of CC, tons of hard CC among them, and while some champs have no cc(ez/nid) that is part of champ selection. do you want to pick more damage over CC? that is what it comes down to.


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Elevare

Junior Member

01-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Pantheon should be somewhat better, we put in some specific fixes around AD casters in itemization. Black cleaver in particular is very good for him. However, he has some other random issues that may not be fully resolved.

I can't speak to Khazix. Not familiar with his issues in great detail, you'd need to ask Statikk or Geeves or Morello.
-Talk about taking hollistic approaches to game balance
-does not feel in touch enough to comment on certian heroes due to the style of development that has been taken.

How is this supposed to be working out exactly?

And the ideas you've expressed about LoL counterplay vs. DotA counterplay, and I don't want to be insulting here because I value both games, but I can't call it anything but laughable.

The meta-game in dota progresses faster, balancing of existing heroes is much more frequent and typically has a great effect on the meta with even small numbers of tweaks. Not to mention almost everything in LoL that scales or progresses does so in a very linear fashion.

Each and every game of lol has a very fixed progression determined only by plays themselves which are typically determined entirely by champ roles and the expectation or fulfilling of roles largely predetermined by the current meta. The results are still skill based, they just aren't often a surprise.

Furthermore a large part of counterplay does and should come in at picks. Creating balanced teams (and actually sometimes in DotA creating teams that will succeed a specific strength as a team unit with some key in game timing i.e. push lineups or the supergank teams of a few years ago) is simply essential to victory on any sort of equal skill level. And this is an area where DotA has a vast advantage. The depth of picks (and as a result the depth of play) is simply far greater. And if we are going to get "holistic" lets not start on the most holistic gameplay feature of all: the map. When it comes to technical and counter play provided by the map itself, DotA is simply way ahead. Or perhaps irreconcilably different.

I feel like i've rambled on here, and I don't feel great about how it has come out but having read through this thread to this point it doesn't compare to how bad I feel about your ideas of balance especially in relation to counter and key-play in DotA vs LoL stack up.

Inform yourself or divorce yourself from making any comparison between the two games at that level. I'd go with the divorce option as LoL is and should be a different game then DotA ever was or will be after all. And the amount of immersion required into DotA is likely far more than would be truly productive.

And again this is not to say LoL does not have its appeals or strengths.

A final bit of opinion on it that I feel is pretty free of a DotA filter: LoL snowballs a bit too hard and as a result, the technical skill declines more and more past the 30 minute mark due to the frantic pace the game develops. And it isn't a good kind of frantic. It doesn't look clean or well executed. The skill simply drops off later due to CC and survive-ability not scaling as well or at all compared to sheer pewpew. I think this was less of an issue before the game become League of leaps.


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Shut up Jesse

Junior Member

01-18-2013

@Morello
Darius is no doubt a very strong champion. My question to you is why did you guys make his ult do true damage? How would it change the game if you made it just do the same amount of damage but allow resists to make it a little less of a definite kill with a definite damage output? The reason I ask this is that in this season I feel like you guys made armor less desirable because it is useless.


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Sgt Squiggles

Junior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by o O View Post
This is kinda specific, but a champion like Akali has so many hard counters:
- Lee Sin
- Lulu
- Vision Wards
- Oracles

Yet you guys aren't (and probably won't) do anything to fix that. You are basically making it impossible for people to play champions like Akali in tournament-level games just because of the sheer amount of hard counters she has (whether they are champions OR cheap items).
Without those, things in the game, akali would be super powerful herself, and her stealth close to unbeatable.

Quote:
You didnt want volibear to come to the league....
Any changes with him? Seriously, he getting tweaked like his skills scaling with hp % or something?
Voli has his place. To me personally, voli is decent in lane. He is a good fighter 1v1. Late game, his tanking ability is fairly strong. He just isn't that strong because his kit requires to be up in your face, and a tank is. He is good, but his kit just doesn't fit the appeal that everyone likes. He's good up close, but farther back (which a lot of teams do to poke and skirmish) he is useless. He is a tank, but not an initiator. He can work, but he needs a team around him.

Overall, I feel there needs to be minor counters, or else what are people going to do to champs that are really fed and well farmed. There needs to be some counter in the game, or there would be just mass chaos.

TL;DR: Counter is essential, but hard counter to where you can't do a thing, sucks and shouldn't really happen. Focuses more on team counter picks than team comp synergy where champs work well together.


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LeafRain

Junior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Right, so, we will have some hard counter champions. We generally want to remove them when they exist, unless there are other large benefits they are providing. We have to make that decision when we see it. It's a holistic evaluation.
All she needs. is a visual update. to fix her bugs. seriously a stun when you knock someone into a wall? her mp out put early game is horrible almost ever one can poke her but i take that to my advantage to kill them. shes a really great champion she just needs some love from riot. even her skins are never on sale. fix up someone her skills give her a little boost and she wont be the most underplayed champ in LoL. i think other than me i i'v only saw 3 people play poppy. and am trying to main her cause no one does


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ClevageWardsOP

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Junior Member

06-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
It's a matter of degree. If first kill caused the game to end, that clearly would be bad. We think that there are a lot of situations in which the game snowballs and then becomes pretty one-dimensional. We'd rather either close these games out, or make it harder to snowball.

Of course, the game needs to snowball at some point, but there's a question of how much, for what action, when, etc.
Garen is a scary snowballer.....


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ClevageWardsOP

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Junior Member

06-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrouge View Post
It's sad because people on this forum will just upvote Zileas simply because he is a Riot employee. Some of what he says may be true but most of the Dota-related arguments and points he has are simply misinformed and ignorant.
I disagree. I know quite a few people who have downvoted Riot employees. For instance, on many Trundle forums, Morello gets downvoted.


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Bork Hammer 40k

Senior Member

06-04-2013

wtf... this thread was dead for 4 months and you had to necro post... all of my what


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Pequeño Timmy

Junior Member

06-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
So, hypothetically, how would you measure counterplay?

Well, for a given ability, wouldnt you need to break it down into how much fun it is to use, versus how much opportunity to punish someone who tries to use it poorly?

Let's look at the classic "Anti fun" examples. I think it's the Pandaren Monk who, with the right items, can chainstun/fear/snare/sheep/whatever a single opponent for a full minute- far more than nessisary, and WAY toxic to the person it's being used on.

The guy with the ult that punishes moving has the appearance of counterplay, (just stand still and take his combo!) but as Zileas has said, this is a "False Choice"- Anything you do is wrong, so there is no counterplay, only a choice of punishments.

And the infamus Invoker, who in his original form had no less than 27 spells (he's been since nerfed to "only" 9 or so, I think) but a good player only ever uses the 2-3 most overpowered of them. "Burden of Knowlege" is the opponent's need to learn counterplay for 9 different spells just to play against them- Xypherous has said much on this topic.
But the ability for a champion with that many options to have an answer for everything itself reduces counterplay, because he has an answer to your answer, and an answer to anything you would try next- a less obvous but no less real example of False Choice, where there is no right answers.

In Lol, you can tell a newbie "That's Karthas. If you ever get low HP, he can kill you from across the map, so go back if you get below half life. If you kill him, get away from the body until he falls over."
"That's Katarina. Do you have a stun?When she starts spinning, hit her with it."
"That's Kogmaw. watch out for stuff falling from the sky, and when he dies, his body will run after you and explode. Dodge them"

It's champs like Darious, where the fun of killstealing a penta outweigh the counterplay (ooh, I popped Barrier! your ult is on cooldown! ...oh wait I died) that we get "toxic" gameplay.
You are mistaking "a single right choice" with "no choice".

Bloodseeker ruptured you? Use a TP and go back to base. The only things that disrupt recalling are silences and stuns.

Invoker? Oh hai my name is BKB, I'm invulnerable for 10 seconds to any kind of magic, so **** you.