Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


@Zileas - Counter Play

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Super Explosion

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
Longer discussion. Morello and Xypherous will be answering this more, but already have on some other threads. Would like to keep this focused on counterplay, not on metagame development. Feel free to open a thread to them ;p


Although, on the subject of counterplay:

Range counters melee.

Just as a hard powerlevel thing, without other mitigating factors involved, the longer the range the harder to counter.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Shosuko

Recruiter

11-23-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
The other counter type, that is a lot more subtle, but also bad, is the type of counter that undermines the rest of the game through reducing the efficacy (and thus potential for skill differentiation/nuance) of other counters too much. For example, when a champion has too many escapes to the point where they lack vulnerability, that's a counter set that removes the ability for others to formulate an effective strategy against it with their abilities in most cases. This may not be perceived as a hard counter, but it's also bad.

This is exactly the way I feel about champions like Rengar, Kass, and so many others... They have escapes that basically tell you "don't bother ganking." Yeah I can make them "waste" their ult to get away, but they are always on short cd b/c you guys design them to be killing machines... Meanwhile the support and adc get screwed out of every safety option they have all while running broke with ward wars...

I like that you guys are providing better ward itemization for supports and limiting oracles. I feel this will go a long way towards giving bot lane some of the ground it needs (and should need) to be a farm lane...

but at the same time I feel you guys are over tuning things towards offense and early aggression... Everything that kills is getting short cd's and high numbers / scaling, even if the item also doubles as a defensive tool. Meanwhile the dedicated defense tools are screwed with longer cd's and worse offensive options... And bot lane, a lane which is supposed to be a "late game carry" who is protected through his weak early game is being replaced by champs with just as potent early and mid game, creating many power discrepancies as they lack vulnerabilities and still carry strong scaling.

My feelings -


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Freykin

Recruiter

11-23-2012

Quote:
Fell14043:
Oh how I love Dune 2.


Harkonnen or GTFO


Ordos all the way! Loved their missile launchers that charmed enemy units. Oh look, fancy Harkonnen tanks.. YOINK!

Though I'll admit I loved building like 9 palaces as Harkonnen and raining missiles of destruction down on the A.I.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GoodwicK

Senior Member

11-23-2012

@Zileas,

you talk about burden of knowledge to play a champ when referring to invoker, but that's why people love the champ and what makes him fun to play. I have no idea to play Dota or even play against other people at that game I just played the bots with Invoker and still had fun! I dont think i used half of his spells correctly but even so the discovery of how to use those spells and what scenarios that they fit in, that was the fun part. if you think that burden of knowledge is something bad(hence the term burden) why do i find invoker fun?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

A Super Saiyan 3

Senior Member

11-23-2012

yeah I call bs, Premium ammo in high teir TD's negate armor at long ranges and armor has never been a problem for artillery HE shells. And all high tier TD's have enough shells to last 2 games anyhow.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

a tiny ant

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
OK, I have an admission. We ripped off auto-attack from Dune 2 and health potions from D&D first edition.


You also ripped off using the RMB to move around. Older games have this as well!1!11


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

koosalagoopagoop

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Zileas:


Darius ult actually has some amount of counterplay because you can outrange it.



Look, I am not trying to cry Darius OP or whatever, but that is a really bad excuse for counterplay. This applies to every single move in the game in that if your not in range, its not going to hurt you. What you are saying is even if it was an instant kill button, it would have the same counterplay. The worst part is it refreshes for no good reason. It's not like he would be weak without the refresh. Garen and Cho have very similar ults in that they are basically finishing moves with short range. But no refresh.

That is the part I don't understand. Why does it refresh? Why not Cho, or Garen? The closest thing we have is Kats ult, and you can counter that by range before or after it starts, or interrupting it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xyltin

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
LightEcho:
Throwing this out there who else is glad to see Zileas writing something intelligent and relevant on the forums again? Instead of counter troll troll Zileas.

At any isn't Darius just a mess of conterplay in general. With his basically undodgable hook and undogable Q(mind you both can whiff but that comes from Darius not his opponent). The ult has already been discussed and I think doing mix physical magic true damage will always remove counter play.
At any rate he has the hook to force engagements and his slow to prevent effective retreats and has a kit build around murdering absolutely everyone if he can get a straight up fight.
Not to say he doesn;t lack weaknesses or counter play entirely hes not particularry mobile but honestly stay outside of hook range always, and call for jungler ganks and pray he doesn't kill one or both of you are pretty ****ty counter play paradigms.


Darius shows how counter play can make an "OP" (community) champ pretty much useless (in tournaments).

Darius can 1v1 great and has no really weak phase. His dmg and burst is great.
But:
- no real range
- no hard CC
- no gap closers after hook (long CD low range)
- no sustain

You can survive him and his harass (he goes low in mana and at 150 mana he probably can't kill you anymore). Cho can do this pretty well.
You can kite him (ADC top destroys Darius. So does Kennen and Teemo).
Gank him cause he has no escape skills and is pretty slow without his passive.

The problem is that DMG is hte most obious strength a champ has, and so people only see DMG as the only real advantage.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xyltin

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
GoodwicK:
@Zileas,

you talk about burden of knowledge to play a champ when referring to invoker, but that's why people love the champ and what makes him fun to play. I have no idea to play Dota or even play against other people at that game I just played the bots with Invoker and still had fun! I dont think i used half of his spells correctly but even so the discovery of how to use those spells and what scenarios that they fit in, that was the fun part. if you think that burden of knowledge is something bad(hence the term burden) why do i find invoker fun?


the thing is that only a hand full of player can play Invoker effectively.
That makes him pretty weak in the hands of worse players and strong in the hands of a great player (what he is now).
Or ok for weaker players, but OP for pro players (what he eas before the last nerfs).

You want to reach the first state (where he is not OP), but then everybody that doesn't play at least 100 games with him will be pretty bad. And who wants to train a champ for 50 hours to be able to play him on a lvl he can play other chars after 5-10 hours?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xyltin

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
koosalagoopagoop:
Look, I am not trying to cry Darius OP or whatever, but that is a really bad excuse for counterplay. This applies to every single move in the game in that if your not in range, its not going to hurt you. What you are saying is even if it was an instant kill button, it would have the same counterplay. The worst part is it refreshes for no good reason. It's not like he would be weak without the refresh. Garen and Cho have very similar ults in that they are basically finishing moves with short range. But no refresh.

That is the part I don't understand. Why does it refresh? Why not Cho, or Garen? The closest thing we have is Kats ult, and you can counter that by range before or after it starts, or interrupting it.


I would say there are 2 reasons for it to refresh:
1. You need 5 stacks on a target. So you need to stay close to a target for around 4 seconds before you can ult for the full dmg. Every enemy that has one escape skill, will be at range again and you can't chase him.
2. The mana costs. Darius doesn't have a huge mana pool and he can't build mana like Cho or gets mana back from CS. A full combo to a kill costs at least 250 mana. Darius has not more than 800 at lvl 18. So before he is max lvl, he doesn't even have the mana for 3 full kills. If he doesn't come directly from the fountain, he can only do 2 full combos. His single abilites are cheap, but all together and especially his ult cost a lot of mana. If he does his E -> AA -> W -> AA -> Q combo and fails to finish you then (or even fails to hit Q), he will have lost a lot of mana. Use pots and he can tray again. After 2 times and farming the lane, he will be down at 100 mana and he has to go B.

It is actually impossible to get a penta kill with Darius if you don't buy a Frozen Heat + TriForce (not really an aweseme item for him). Q and W doesn't kill a smart enemy and stacking the passive and using R costs too much time and mana.
A tripple kill is possible, but you need to be ahead of the enemy team by a good amount.