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@Zileas - Counter Play

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Live Lavish

Senior Member

11-22-2012

how u gon stop poppy?


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Sinspurch

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
Yes, Poppy needs a rework. The live team is aware, and we will be accelerating our rate of remakes. I don't know when we will get to Poppy specifically, but you are totally correct that she needs a variety of tweaks and overhauls.

When you say "tweaks and overhauls", I really hope that doesnt mean her abilities will be changed to change the way she is played, she was my first champion i really liked because of how fast she is, the CD on her abilities make her a really fun assassin. : [


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Holgranth

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Sinspurch:
When you say "tweaks and overhauls", I really hope that doesnt mean her abilities will be changed to change the way she is played, she was my first champion i really liked because of how fast she is, the CD on her abilities make her a really fun assassin. : [

Well generally they seem to be trying to keep the feel of the champions as close as possible to the origional while still making them balanced and viable. I'm sure that the general feel of Poppy can be kept, its not going to quite as radical of a direction as the stealth reworks for example.

Having said that Poppy has a CRAPLOAD of issues not the least of which is that if she gets items there really is no answer to her ult, I'd say it is the only I win button in LoL, so be braced for radical changes.


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Thezyzyva

Member

11-22-2012

@Zileas, first, thank you for keeping an intelligent thread running for more than a day. Second, how do you feel about champions that get placed into a strong spot due to the meta? Specifically I refer to Rumble, a champ who counters a lot of typical top lane roles. I know he's (for some reason) fallen out of favor lately but for awhile he had an incredible win rate for top lane. Personally (I play him almost exclusively so I may be biased) I feel like he's not overtly OP but rather just a soft counter to champions typically found in top lane. When such a case arises do you simply wait for the meta to evolve to deal with him or do you think that a champ that so easily counters the meta removes counterplay? Because quite honestly I was terrified for awhile that he was going to get nerfs that he doesn't need. Thank Morello for Jayce, amirite?


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Para

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Hey Zileas have you read this reddit thread? There are a lot of people who seem to disagree with you.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13mw3a/zileas_with_an_insightful_post_on_counterplay_in/


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Rebonack

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
Yes, Poppy needs a rework. The live team is aware, and we will be accelerating our rate of remakes. I don't know when we will get to Poppy specifically, but you are totally correct that she needs a variety of tweaks and overhauls.


Y'know what would be keen?

The target Poppy Ults can only effect Poppy. Poppy can only effect the target she Ults. Then rework her around that concept.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-22-2012

Quote:
Para:
Hey Zileas have you read this reddit thread? There are a lot of people who seem to disagree with you.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13mw3a/zileas_with_an_insightful_post_on_counterplay_in/

Yes, I saw it. It's a lot of "I don't agree, you are wrong" and "More counters = more counterplay" arguments, which are not really very interesting to debate. The first isn't a debate, and the second I already spelled out in my original response. It's very possible for the addition of a seemingly awesome counter to actually reduce the nuance of the game -- BKB being an easy example, but lots of subtle stuff also being this way (e.g. vlad's pool).

I don't see much debate around the basic argument I made -- the idea that not all counterplay is equal, and we should seek to maximize the amount of counterplay delivered. Doing this requires a holistic view of how anything you adds affects the game.

I'm not seeing much rebuttal to that basic argument.

I feel like a lot of why LoL has been so successful in competitive play is our emphasis of developing counterplay to evolve the genre, and you see those nuances come out very well in top tier competitive play. Are there issues? Sure. We are addressing a number of them with the upcoming season 3 patch.


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F?uttershy

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
For example, when a champion has too many escapes to the point where they lack vulnerability, that's a counter set that removes the ability for others to formulate an effective strategy against it with their abilities in most cases. This may not be perceived as a hard counter, but it's also bad.

*Cough cough* Leblanc.


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
Yes, I saw it. It's a lot of "I don't agree, you are wrong" and "More counters = more counterplay" arguments, which are not really very interesting to debate. The first isn't a debate, and the second I already spelled out in my original response. It's very possible for the addition of a seemingly awesome counter to actually reduce the nuance of the game -- BKB being an easy example, but lots of subtle stuff also being this way (e.g. vlad's pool).

I don't see much debate around the basic argument I made -- the idea that not all counterplay is equal, and we should seek to maximize the amount of counterplay delivered. Doing this requires a holistic view of how anything you adds affects the game.

I'm not seeing much rebuttal to that basic argument.

I feel like a lot of why LoL has been so successful in competitive play is our emphasis of developing counterplay to evolve the genre, and you see those nuances come out very well in top tier competitive play. Are there issues? Sure. We are addressing a number of them with the upcoming season 3 patch.


Can you address champions like Pantheon and Kha'zix underperforming? I know you think S3 is going to fix it because it makes damage items cheaper and armor pen more available, but Kha'zix's ultimate and Q evolve are lacking, and his leap is terrible. And Pantheon has AP ratio's everywhere when it's clearly holding him back from being a good champion.


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F?uttershy

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Zileas:
I actually think Blitz does well and the bans are mostly out of a general 'I don't want to deal with the risk and energy required' more than raw frustration. He does well on counterplay, and a lot of that has to come to how you alter your play as an individual and as a team knowing they have a blitz, and the nuance around baiting opportunities, intentionally taking a hook to initiate, etc that happens. I don't see a lot of blitzcrank stopping people from doing strategies, and more them adding to them...

I also think that teamplay, which wasn't discussed in this episode, is relevant. I like that teams can to a degree build strategies around the presence of a blitz, and try to cluster and wait for a hook with a blitz -- both very interesting situations in which people alter their play to then get benefit, and in a way that is nuanced, interesting, etc.

Whenever I have to deal with a blitz, I just get someone that WANTS to be pulled (Amumu, Sejuani, Rammus, etc.) and just stand in front. Anticipate the pull, bait the blitz INTO a pull, and then wreck his team while they rage at him for pulling the Amumu to their untimely demise.