@Zileas - Counter Play

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Celestya

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by neagrosk View Post
I personally find LoL much more snowbally than Dota (from 500+ games of LoL and 200+ games of DotA)

Much of the reason why is because gold is worth a bajillion times more in LoL than in DotA. In LoL you basically have 3 main gold earners (top, mid, adc) one sup earner (jungle) and one person that can't get any gold/only gets it if nobody is around (support). There isn't much versatility there and once you're behind in gold it's really hard to get back in the game (a vs b can be even but a vs b +40 cs is almost always in favor of b)

In Dota because of the non scaling nature of the mages they really only need exp to contribute to the team in fights, albeit extremely squishy and unreliable depending on how much gold they earned. People don't fall behind as fast because they don't have as much cs as their counterparts on the enemy team.

That being said these are core defining mechanics and they account for much of the difference in playstyle between DotA and LoL.

So yeah I believe LoL is much more snowbally than DotA but please don't ever compare the two, it's like comparing European chess with Chinese chess, they're completely different games despite their similarities and comparisons don't really do much.
LoL in it's current form, has become more snowball oriented. However, DotA itself has FAR more mechanics to create a snowball than LoL does. Gold loss on death alone, can completely negate and shutdown one person out of a game (or more depending on losses/deaths etc).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

humaNz

Junior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestya View Post
LoL in it's current form, has become more snowball oriented. However, DotA itself has FAR more mechanics to create a snowball than LoL does. Gold loss on death alone, can completely negate and shutdown one person out of a game (or more depending on losses/deaths etc).

That goes both ways though; gank whoever is starting to get big and his money advantage goes down the sink. It will be early game enough he won't have too big of an advantage and you can just CC and burst him down.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

h 2

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Zileas, why was our ability to snap drop a ward to blocking collision based abilities taken away? Counterplay like crazy.

Rammus rolling in on you? Block that powerball with a well timed ward. You're Rammus, trying to roll in on someone? Bait the drop then roll on in. etc, it was good give it back please. thanks


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

xkawazux

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
One area in which dota and LoL differ a lot, and an area we've spent a lot of effort trying to evolve the genre, is on the idea of hard counters.

Hard counters, by their definition, allow for very limited counterplay. In some sense, they are a pre-planned rock-paper-scissors scenario -- I am now playing rock, you have scissors, so you lose. This happens with a lot more frequency in DOTA lane matchups and in item purchase decisions, and we sought to reduce these in evolving the genre.

My view on this is that when you have a hard counter, and by extension, a rock-paper-scissors scenario, you've eliminated the potential for further skill differentiate, nuance, etc to occur. In short, while it feels satisfying to have a hard counter, there's not a challenging, interesting game to be played on the receiving end at that point. Soft counters are better because they confer advantage and reward skill on the aggressor side also, but depend heavily upon execution, and thus, are more competitive and more vulnerable to defender interference via skill..

We've tried to enrich LoL by ensuring that in as many possible situations as we can, there is an interesting set of mechanics to play out that involves good execution. DOTA is very comfortable with either "A beats B", or "Once A has B, and presses the button at the right time, C can't help but lose". We want it to be more fluid and ongoing. The downside of this is that it's less possible for one button press to determine the entire outcome of a fight, but we think it's better to not do that in favor of a multiple-layered execution of soft counters. We just think it's more nuanced and interesting, and it's a large philosophical difference. In the end, we feel it builds a multiplayer experience that is both more competitive and more fun, most especially for our most competitive players.
While I think you are right about LOL overall, there are plenty of hard counter type champions in LoL.

Usually it boils down to a champion being completely unable to cope with a certain types of abilities/kits (such as sustain, ability to push lane, ability to force a passive or overly aggressive lane ect), while being impossible to manage if you don't have some of those tools.

Kassadin is a good example. If you have any one of half a dozen things in your kit, Kassadin will lose lane badly without really being able to do much. If you don't have enough of those tools, Kassadin wins lane easily and it's hard/frustrating to deal with him if he isn't immediately shut down by a bad match up.

Do you think that champions like this should have their match ups averaged out somehow?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-22-2012
18 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by xkawazux View Post
While I think you are right about LOL overall, there are plenty of hard counter type champions in LoL.

Usually it boils down to a champion being completely unable to cope with a certain types of abilities/kits (such as sustain, ability to push lane, ability to force a passive or overly aggressive lane ect), while being impossible to manage if you don't have some of those tools.

Kassadin is a good example. If you have any one of half a dozen things in your kit, Kassadin will lose lane badly without really being able to do much. If you don't have enough of those tools, Kassadin wins lane easily and it's hard/frustrating to deal with him if he isn't immediately shut down by a bad match up.

Do you think that champions like this should have their match ups averaged out somehow?
Right, so, we will have some hard counter champions. We generally want to remove them when they exist, unless there are other large benefits they are providing. We have to make that decision when we see it. It's a holistic evaluation.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fox P McCloud

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Right, so, we will have some hard counter champions. We generally want to remove them when they exist, unless there are other large benefits they are providing. We have to make that decision when we see it. It's a holistic evaluation.
While we're discussing counter-play, let's talk about Poppy.

Her ult offers zero counter-play, in realistic situations (let's face it, in real games, she's going to ult the person who has no CC or the support)---the only thing that doesn't make her completely broken is her inability to lane effectively---that said, in gold guaranteed environments (ie: Dominion), this becomes incredibly apparent quite quickly.

Not even BKB is as bad as Poppy's ultimate is--is this indicative that Poppy might, on the whole, need a rework?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cattlyst

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
The other counter type, that is a lot more subtle, but also bad, is the type of counter that undermines the rest of the game through reducing the efficacy (and thus potential for skill differentiation/nuance) of other counters too much. For example, when a champion has too many escapes to the point where they lack vulnerability, that's a counter set that removes the ability for others to formulate an effective strategy against it with their abilities in most cases. This may not be perceived as a hard counter, but it's also bad.
I think you absolutely have a point about hard counters being bad. I don't think lanes should be purely decided by champion select. And these are rare in LoL.

I will say, however, that LoL suffers a lot from this subtle countering that I quoted from you. I can't play a decent game of Trundle/Udyr/Garen/Volibear/WW pre-6 without hitting the boatload of new champions that generally have a slow, hard CC, and built in escapes. Riven, for example, makes it not worth jungling as anyone except Maokai. Another example; a champ like Katarina didn't really need a movespeed buff added to her kit. I'm no game designer or anything, I'm just making it plain that newer champions have made gap-closer-lacking champions irrelevant.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-22-2012
19 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cattlyst View Post
I think you absolutely have a point about hard counters being bad. I don't think lanes should be purely decided by champion select. And these are rare in LoL.

I will say, however, that LoL suffers a lot from this subtle countering that I quoted from you. I can't play a decent game of Trundle/Udyr/Garen/Volibear/WW pre-6 without hitting the boatload of new champions that generally have a slow, hard CC, and built in escapes. Riven, for example, makes it not worth jungling as anyone except Maokai. Another example; a champ like Katarina didn't really need a movespeed buff added to her kit. I'm no game designer or anything, I'm just making it plain that newer champions have made gap-closer-lacking champions irrelevant.
Yeah, there is some work we need to do for sure. I 100% agree with you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-22-2012
20 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
While we're discussing counter-play, let's talk about Poppy.

Her ult offers zero counter-play, in realistic situations (let's face it, in real games, she's going to ult the person who has no CC or the support)---the only thing that doesn't make her completely broken is her inability to lane effectively---that said, in gold guaranteed environments (ie: Dominion), this becomes incredibly apparent quite quickly.

Not even BKB is as bad as Poppy's ultimate is--is this indicative that Poppy might, on the whole, need a rework?
Yes, Poppy needs a rework. The live team is aware, and we will be accelerating our rate of remakes. I don't know when we will get to Poppy specifically, but you are totally correct that she needs a variety of tweaks and overhauls.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Claw of Time

Member

11-22-2012

?