@Zileas - Counter Play

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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-22-2012
17 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
In-game, yes, but doesn't counters, etc. go beyond more than just the actual gameplay phase (ie: picks and bans?). Heck, even in LoL, I've heard competitive players (such as Scarra) state a large portion of the game is already decided during the picks and bans phase in LoL as well.
Yes, and we want this determination to be as low as we can. The priority for champion select is for it to produce rich, interesting gameplay within the game. It is not to win or lose the match -- 3 minutes of counterpicking for essentially one guy is not very fun or terribly competitive compared to a rich mix of soft counters in the game. As evidenced by the diversity we see in tournaments and so forth, I think LoL accomplishes this goal better at this than DOTA (probably because it feels like controlling champ select win causing is not really a goal of DOTA).

That being said, I would encourage you to go look at the LoL world finals between AZF and TPA and tell me which games were pre-determined. I feel like any of those picks/counterpicks could've resulted in different results in game, and eventually, the better team prevailed through consistently strong play. TPA definitely picked a little better, but I think they could've easily lost those games with slightly weaker play, and easily have won the first game as well with slightly better play.

Of course, we want to continue chiseling away at snowballing and hard counters, and I think we've been making progress as we continue to improve play balance. Some of the changes we are making in s3 also serve to reduce snowballing, and increase soft counter spectrum (range of power scaling in which a soft counter will continue to not be a hard counter), and the # of soft counters available.

So anyway, pre-determination from champ select IS not good counterplay. That's a counter being applied that then results in a less rich game. I find it strange that we sometimes get criticized on this by some members of the DOTA community when in fact, a less hard counter champ select makes the game more competitive and nuanced in the actual 30-45 minutes of the game.



Quote:
We'll see, but I'm still extremely skeptical and doubtful of this---could you give me an example of how the addition of kiting (and some of the new items) and the defense scaling could possibly make melee carries more viable while still retaining superior DPS to a ranged carry (because, the way I see it, if a melee carry's DPS is inferior to a ranged carry, then you're better off just picking a second ranged carry and going with that...especially considering there's a few that can survive top lane an mid lane).

If you can talk me through that, I would really appreciate it.
Longer discussion. Morello and Xypherous will be answering this more, but already have on some other threads. Would like to keep this focused on counterplay, not on metagame development. Feel free to open a thread to them ;p


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Xpyder

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Senior Member

11-22-2012

Zileas, ignore them dota player's... the game is made of hard counters from the ground up, with non solvable situations where a guy can just jump into ur team, stun everyone for 4-5 seconds and kill 1 or 2 before the fight even starts... and then there's bkb, guinsoo's... phantom assassin(a hero that late game has a fully random factor that can decide everything!!!), stealth assassin(hero that makes the game basically, revolve around him!)... and ogre mage(again, random stuff that changes everything!!!)...

I Like what you guys are doing here, changing almost everything in hopes that S3 will be different than S2, something that basically never happens on Dota...


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Longer discussion. Morello and Xypherous will be answering this more, but already have on some other threads. Would like to keep this focused on counterplay, not on metagame development. Feel free to open a thread to them ;p
Err--ok, I will, but I find it funny that Morello replied to my post in agreement, but you seem to indicate more of the opposite, which is why I wanted your input.


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plasmatorture

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Senior Member

11-22-2012

I think the focus on good counterplay comes across as LoL often feels like there's something I could do about it. It's one of the main reasons I prefer this to SC2, which is often - are they building X unit? If so build a bunch of Y, its counter, and you win. Similarly Smash Bros' with its DI and knockback systems actually has more depth and fun counterplay than traditional fighters, even if it has a more limited number of offensive moves. Combos are created on the fly by reacting to how your opponent is reacting to being hit, instead of just regurgitating a combo you learned in training mode.

I do think League needs to focus more on this with champion design, though. For every Orianna who adds a lot to both play and counterplay, there's at least two or three faceroll champs like Darius who detract from the game.


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Roderick Brookes

Junior Member

11-22-2012

LoL is fun. DOTA is not. Zileas has really articulated why.


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Dragull2

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed, but that solution isn't worth making a class of characters viable, and it's not the only solution. At any rate, cost/benefit analysis of solutions is really important, and Tryndamere being in tournaments isn't worth the sheer amount of option removal BKB would bring for League.
No one is saying BKB should be copy&paste to league, but the effect of CC immunity for a 3-5 seconds would certainly help melee carries.
And in the same way people hold their spells until Tryndamere Ult is over, people will hold their CC until the "CC immunity effect" ends.

Imagine Mercury Scimitar with CC immunity for 5 seconds (for melee only). How is that making other champions obsolete?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
They are really cool characters... that have some toxic mechanics. I don't see the characters as huge mistakes, but I do see those mechanics as mistakes.
What's Vlad problems, specifically? Is he sustain with 0 resources? Because a lot of champions have this...
And his pool, how is that problematic? Escaping ganks is easier with dashes. Which a ton lot of champions seem to have nowadays


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Celestya

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Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragull2 View Post
No one is saying BKB should be copy&paste to league, but the effect of CC immunity for a 3-5 seconds would certainly help melee carries.
And in the same way people hold their spells until Tryndamere Ult is over, people will hold their CC until the "CC immunity effect" ends.

Imagine Mercury Scimitar with CC immunity for 5 seconds (for melee only). How is that making other champions obsolete?

What's Vlad problems, specifically? Is he sustain with 0 resources? Because a lot of champions have this...
And his pool, how is that problematic? Escaping ganks is easier with dashes. Which a ton lot of champions seem to have nowadays
Vlad pool can singlehandedly waste ultimates. That's kinda huge...


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Lazreal

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
One area in which dota and LoL differ a lot, and an area we've spent a lot of effort trying to evolve the genre, is on the idea of hard counters.

Hard counters, by their definition, allow for very limited counterplay. In some sense, they are a pre-planned rock-paper-scissors scenario -- I am now playing rock, you have scissors, so you lose. This happens with a lot more frequency in DOTA lane matchups and in item purchase decisions, and we sought to reduce these in evolving the genre.

My view on this is that when you have a hard counter, and by extension, a rock-paper-scissors scenario, you've eliminated the potential for further skill differentiate, nuance, etc to occur. In short, while it feels satisfying to have a hard counter, there's not a challenging, interesting game to be played on the receiving end at that point. Soft counters are better because they confer advantage and reward skill on the aggressor side also, but depend heavily upon execution, and thus, are more competitive and more vulnerable to defender interference via skill..

We've tried to enrich LoL by ensuring that in as many possible situations as we can, there is an interesting set of mechanics to play out that involves good execution. DOTA is very comfortable with either "A beats B", or "Once A has B, and presses the button at the right time, C can't help but lose". We want it to be more fluid and ongoing. The downside of this is that it's less possible for one button press to determine the entire outcome of a fight, but we think it's better to not do that in favor of a multiple-layered execution of soft counters. We just think it's more nuanced and interesting, and it's a large philosophical difference. In the end, we feel it builds a multiplayer experience that is both more competitive and more fun, most especially for our most competitive players.

Agreed, Keep up the awesome gameplay and balances Rioters


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SingleKill

Junior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Is Not Gay View Post
Even though I play both games and won't say that one is superior to other one thing has always irked me about league and that is the idea of "trading" in lane. If you want to do damage you have to take damage, and while that's not always a 100% case truth I feel like it's true often enough to make it very frustrating experience, as who wins the lane often comes down to who can trade better or who has more jungle support. I feel like the skill component only really comes into play by recognizing when to play aggressive and when to play defensive, when do I want to force trades and when do I want to avoid them? As well as balancing the risk of being a lane bully versus overextending yourself. In Dota there are all kinds of sneaky things you can do to dish out some damage without being retaliated on and the skill component comes into play by recognizing how to harass the enemy hero without taking a lot of return fire. Overall I feel a lot more rewarded with the Dota method, I feel like I outplayed my lane opponent and get rewarded with free harass. Obviously this is something that's never going to happen in League and that's fine, the games went in distinct directions, but I felt like it was worth pointing out.
If you're not finding sneaky ways to deal free damage in lane, you're not playing it right. Every time your minion is low hp and theirs isn't, that's a free auto. In almost every matchup there are multiple ways to harass and outplay, just different layers. Play against anyone who's around 200-300 elo higher than you, and it'll open a new world of ways to harass as you'll find yourself half hp without touching them.


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neagrosk

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Senior Member

11-22-2012

I personally find LoL much more snowbally than Dota (from 500+ games of LoL and 200+ games of DotA)

Much of the reason why is because gold is worth a bajillion times more in LoL than in DotA. In LoL you basically have 3 main gold earners (top, mid, adc) one sup earner (jungle) and one person that can't get any gold/only gets it if nobody is around (support). There isn't much versatility there and once you're behind in gold it's really hard to get back in the game (a vs b can be even but a vs b +40 cs is almost always in favor of b)

In Dota because of the non scaling nature of the mages they really only need exp to contribute to the team in fights, albeit extremely squishy and unreliable depending on how much gold they earned. People don't fall behind as fast because they don't have as much cs as their counterparts on the enemy team.

That being said these are core defining mechanics and they account for much of the difference in playstyle between DotA and LoL.

So yeah I believe LoL is much more snowbally than DotA but please don't ever compare the two, it's like comparing European chess with Chinese chess, they're completely different games despite their similarities and comparisons don't really do much.