@Zileas - Counter Play

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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
14 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Zileas, how can you say they're "not that far off"? =/ Aside from champions that are going to get reworked (Karma, Heimer, etc), or ones that probably need it (Nasus)---Fiora, Yi, and Tryn have the worst win rate in high-Elo solo queue (also amongst the lowest popularity)---on top of this, they're never picked in competitive play.

Also, how is adding far more kiting in S3 going to solve the issue? The Frozen Gauntling thing effectively means a perma-slow, BotRK cann easily be picked up by ranged AD to ensure you don't get close---true shard ensures even a support or mage can even keep you from getting close. CC and AoE (which has increased in S3) will still crush you in no time flat, and you're forced into itemizing for survivability, which inevitably means your DPS will be less than that of ranged---which goes back to my original point---if you end up doing less damage and are melee---why bother playing a melee ADC over a ranged?
Uh, LoveMyRMB, one of the assistant designers, pretty much steamrolls with tryndamere in top tier solo queue (he's like 2500). I honestly don't think it's that far off, and s3 has a lot of nuance in it related to how defenses scale, what mobility options and kiting options are available, etc which may modify how this plays off.


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RedPlanet

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Blade of the Ruined King is probably better on a melee than a ranged, because of the range of the active. And the %hp damage has the greatest effect on the first few hits, if you autoattack a lot it's not doing as much for you on the later hits.

Kage's Last Breath aoe slow works just as well for you as it does against you. Take Lulu's ult, it's often used quite effectively on melee characters.

Tiamat/SotD let you itemize for a little more towards burst damage, give you an extra button to press when you manage to get in.


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I actually think Blitz does well and the bans are mostly out of a general 'I don't want to deal with the risk and energy required' more than raw frustration. He does well on counterplay, and a lot of that has to come to how you alter your play as an individual and as a team knowing they have a blitz, and the nuance around baiting opportunities, intentionally taking a hook to initiate, etc that happens. I don't see a lot of blitzcrank stopping people from doing strategies, and more them adding to them...

I also think that teamplay, which wasn't discussed in this episode, is relevant. I like that teams can to a degree build strategies around the presence of a blitz, and try to cluster and wait for a hook with a blitz -- both very interesting situations in which people alter their play to then get benefit, and in a way that is nuanced, interesting, etc.
I'm reading this, and I'm finding it hard to believe you dont think blitz is stupid the way he is right now. Blitz is the single most game ruining thing in this game by far. He should not be able to rocket grab through walls. I have to spend so much ****ing effort and energy for even the most novice of blitzcrank players. It's absurd. I'm just going to ban him, and katarina every draft I ever do (Assuming I Ever do draft, I just play blind atm)

I'm kind of mad at you right now for not agreeing that blitz is OP as hell.


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Seungsei

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Are activated abilities on items a good idea or do they lead down a path where we see the same counter plays with any combination of champions?


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

11-21-2012

@Zileas: Could you comment on what made Urgot so Toxic to be nerfed as hard as he was? If being in an UP, poor itemization state makes him "feel trash", and a powerful buffed state makes him 100% picked/banned, what makes the powered state so deserving on what one would say crippling nerfs? I can't wrap my head around what made Urgot more toxic and deserving of nerfs than Blitzcrank, who is a CC/initiation death machine (and hasn't received a proper nerf, considring his Utility and place as a Support)?

Urgot is a highly skill and team dependent Champion, and was powerful in an age when Ezreal and Sona weren't considered so godly, so I'm wondering what would make a buffed up Urgot such a bad idea (Morello has expressed interest in a rework in the meantime). Why doesn't Urgot get some of his strength back (outside of the better S3 itemization he's getting)?


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Freykin

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Ghost, there's things you can do about Blitz. If he's your core worry of the enemy team, build a lineup where 3-4 of your team are people he really doesn't want to grab. No one wants to grab Irelia/Alistar/Shyvana/Malphite in a team fight situation, as you've just given them a free initiate on your team instead. Another solution is to do an aoe comp, since the enemy team is going to be all clustered around the Blitz.


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Archyboy

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Melee carries are not that far from top-tier viability, and I'm hoping that some of the s3 changes will have their intended effect and resolve. It's a solvable problem from our perspective, and one we will solve. But it may take some iterations.
The only way to actually get melee carries back into the game would be to change a lot of the bruisers to melee AD. Irelia, Olaf, and Xin to an extent are some examples. While also reducing the effectiveness of all gap closers/escapes on ranged AD. We already have flash why do they need to be ranged AND be able to escape with ease? All these things that need to be fixed along with the ludicrous amount of mobility and CC every champion and their grandmother has, could potentially be solved by adding one dinky little item with very similar cooldowns to it's DoTA counterpart.

All this talk from the community about the meta is misdirected hate. What should be hated is the lane setup.

Why bother making so many changes to the game when you have already solidified the need of a jungler 100% of the time(Problem with smite being accessible as a summoner). Have you ever thought that maybe the game would be healthier if lane setups weren't so stale? Just adding Venomancer and Vengeful Spirit would give rise to tri-lanes. Most people like seeing different lane setups like 2 carries being babysat by supports/tanks and a ganker/pusher mid.

Sure I have DoTA syndrome but from what I see it looks like you guys are just scared to make League more like DoTA. By not adding a cooldown timer for flash when you get hit by an enemy champion(Which I have yet to see why you dislike this idea Zileas, you push melee AD FURTHER away from their intended goal of go in and have the enemy bend over(I get it that's not fun but right now THEY are doing the bending over). Melee AD are seen as trash right now because they CANNOT STICK TO THEIR TARGETS FOR ****. Yi has 300 AD and 70% crit chance? Well I guess I'll just flash away and use my gap closer as an escape before he gets to two shot me it's alright for me since he already wasted his Q. While I'm at it I will use my unnecessary CC with my ranged kit. The only truly successful melee AD carry is Poppy. And thank god for her horrid laning phase, I don't know about you but I actually enjoy being semi-worthless early game. Like I was a squire working towards being the next knight in shining armor.

When Olaf was first released I saw a champion that did some nice damage. I realized hell why don't I just make him do more? Well it worked when everyone didn't flash/gap close away from me. Then I thought of using Nocturne in the same way. Yet again the same problem persisted. You basically shifted all the melee AD carries into bruisers.

On another note fixing your resourceless and energy champs base damages and scaling would help everyone. Why are they allowed to roam around doing as much damage as mana users? Why are they even allowed CDR?(Riven is a prime example of this) I thought the point of having no mana was so you didn't have to worry about a resource but have a downside of doing less damage and only worry about cooldowns. I don't think there's anything to fear from a resourceless/energy champ that can spam every < 6 seconds without worry. Don't get me wrong, their kits are cool but they are just too spammy for offering the same damage/mobility as a mana user.

This will probably fall on deaf ears as usual so I don't even know why I'm bothering. Hopefully you actually see this and decide to restore my faith that has been slowly dying. I prefer IceFrog's way of balance. No I am not talking about make every champ ridiculously overpowered. I'm talking about every few months making HUGE changes to every champ and forcefully shifts the meta game. Alchemist has lowest win rate? Let's just buff his potential. Morphling rapes a lot? Guess I better tone him down. Since there are patches every two weeks one would expect significant changes.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Uh, LoveMyRMB, one of the assistant designers, pretty much steamrolls with tryndamere in top tier solo queue (he's like 2500). I honestly don't think it's that far off, and s3 has a lot of nuance in it related to how defenses scale, what mobility options and kiting options are available, etc which may modify how this plays off.
We'll see, but I'm still extremely skeptical and doubtful of this---could you give me an example of how the addition of kiting (and some of the new items) and the defense scaling could possibly make melee carries more viable while still retaining superior DPS to a ranged carry (because, the way I see it, if a melee carry's DPS is inferior to a ranged carry, then you're better off just picking a second ranged carry and going with that...especially considering there's a few that can survive top lane an mid lane).

If you can talk me through that, I would really appreciate it.


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Confusion567

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I actually think Blitz does well and the bans are mostly out of a general 'I don't want to deal with the risk and energy required' more than raw frustration. He does well on counterplay, and a lot of that has to come to how you alter your play as an individual and as a team knowing they have a blitz, and the nuance around baiting opportunities, intentionally taking a hook to initiate, etc that happens. I don't see a lot of blitzcrank stopping people from doing strategies, and more them adding to them...

I also think that teamplay, which wasn't discussed in this episode, is relevant. I like that teams can to a degree build strategies around the presence of a blitz, and try to cluster and wait for a hook with a blitz -- both very interesting situations in which people alter their play to then get benefit, and in a way that is nuanced, interesting, etc.
When I play Leona support, I actually try to get Blitz grabbed when we're ready to go in for a kill, because it does exactly what I want (get me over to the enemy team) without wasting my E.

While we're talking champion mechanics and unfunness - how do you feel about Teemo? I've long thought that his kit was the most anti-fun in League.
His passive gives him the frustration level of old Twitch/Eve (though with significantly more limitations) as far as "I'll get you, Teemo! Oh, you're ten feet ahead of me. GG." This is compounded by his W; there's no real counterplay except "chase better" or "buy oracle's." His blind is extremely frustrating as well; I assume there's a reason you've whittled down the Blind mechanic to two champions, one of whom has it on an easily-dodged skillshot (and is due for a rework, anyway), since it basically makes any autoattack-based champion go AFK for its duration (somehow, despite being weaker than a stun, it's more frustrating). Finally, his ultimate (I have no particular distaste for his DoT except insofar as I've been killed many times after "escaping") I think is the worst offender. Admittedly, there is a lot of play it creates on both sides ("where should I leave it?" "where did he leave it?"), but the combined sudden damage out of nowhere, long dot, and slow go together to make stepping on a shroom one of the most frustrating experiences in League. I have never thought to myself, "Well-placed, Teemo, I deserve to die like this" (whereas I regularly think that sort of thing after, say, an expert gank, a clutch Blitz/Morg skillshot, or a masterful Alistar Flash into Headbutt).
In addition, 'shrooms have no true counterplay. One option is to try to outthink the Teemo, which might work in a high-level tournament against a player with documented patterns, but is impossible against a standard player; by the time you find enough of them to spot a pattern, he's already dealt thousands of damage to your team. The only other option is to buy Oracle's, but by the time you see a mushroom you're already on top of it (or your teammate is), and it's faster for him to drop them than for you to sweep them.

Thanks for the conversation, Zil. This is really cool =)


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Doonhijoe V

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
..
Zileas, I have an honest question: do you think manaless champions have fair counterplay?


I mean, when you lane against someone with powerful, but mana intensive abilities and bait them to use them sub-optimally, or you know you can outsustain their harass, or you know you can out trade them making them lose more HP even if you both use even mana, Those are examples of counterplay against champions WITH mana, but champions that aren't limited by that have so much less counterplay. You can't make them waste mana, you can't always out harass them because you are limited in your resources. The manaless champion can use all sorts of tools to hinder you, but all you have is their cooldowns to abuse.

DO you think this is a poor design choice overall?

(I'm not even going to mention vlad)