@Zileas - Counter Play

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ImpossibleGT

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Zileas, why would you fail to mention that your ideas were the focus of this week's Extra Credits? Doing cool things and not even telling us? That's just not right.


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DeathByWaffle

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Oh wow. Way to go Zileas


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SavageMinnow

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Oh wow. I watched all that earlier today and totally missed that it was Zileas who come up with it. I even thought at the time "Wasn't there a Rioter on the forums saying a lot of stuff like this?" I think it might have been Morello that I'd be thinking of at the time, though, not sure. I imagine the idea is part of the staff's decision making process, not just one guy's idea.

In any case, way to go Zileas.


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ImpossibleGT

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Bump and run.


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

11-21-2012

So, hypothetically, how would you measure counterplay?

Well, for a given ability, wouldnt you need to break it down into how much fun it is to use, versus how much opportunity to punish someone who tries to use it poorly?

Let's look at the classic "Anti fun" examples. I think it's the Pandaren Monk who, with the right items, can chainstun/fear/snare/sheep/whatever a single opponent for a full minute- far more than nessisary, and WAY toxic to the person it's being used on.

The guy with the ult that punishes moving has the appearance of counterplay, (just stand still and take his combo!) but as Zileas has said, this is a "False Choice"- Anything you do is wrong, so there is no counterplay, only a choice of punishments.

And the infamus Invoker, who in his original form had no less than 27 spells (he's been since nerfed to "only" 9 or so, I think) but a good player only ever uses the 2-3 most overpowered of them. "Burden of Knowlege" is the opponent's need to learn counterplay for 9 different spells just to play against them- Xypherous has said much on this topic.
But the ability for a champion with that many options to have an answer for everything itself reduces counterplay, because he has an answer to your answer, and an answer to anything you would try next- a less obvous but no less real example of False Choice, where there is no right answers.

In Lol, you can tell a newbie "That's Karthas. If you ever get low HP, he can kill you from across the map, so go back if you get below half life. If you kill him, get away from the body until he falls over."
"That's Katarina. Do you have a stun?When she starts spinning, hit her with it."
"That's Kogmaw. watch out for stuff falling from the sky, and when he dies, his body will run after you and explode. Dodge them"

It's champs like Darious, where the fun of killstealing a penta outweigh the counterplay (ooh, I popped Barrier! your ult is on cooldown! ...oh wait I died) that we get "toxic" gameplay.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
1 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackalHalfdragon View Post
So, hypothetically, how would you measure counterplay?
Gradually, and often subjectively

Quote:
Well, for a given ability, wouldnt you need to break it down into how much fun it is to use, versus how much opportunity to punish someone who tries to use it poorly?
We often apply mental frameworks around this. For example, we ask, "What are the valid responses you can make?", and then in testing, "are they properly effective?" and make changes. Sometimes, you can do a very simple shift to enhance the strategic depth of the ability by adding a limitation, or adding a success condition. For example, Dark Binding is BETTER for having the minion collision case.


Quote:
And the infamus Invoker, who in his original form had no less than 27 spells (he's been since nerfed to "only" 9 or so, I think) but a good player only ever uses the 2-3 most overpowered of them. "Burden of Knowlege" is the opponent's need to learn counterplay for 9 different spells just to play against them- Xypherous has said much on this topic.
But the ability for a champion with that many options to have an answer for everything itself reduces counterplay, because he has an answer to your answer, and an answer to anything you would try next- a less obvous but no less real example of False Choice, where there is no right answers.
Burden of knowledge is mostly about the idea that by improving how we sell what is going, we can improve the ability of people to begin to act strategically and really master the nuances of the game.

Quote:
It's champs like Darious, where the fun of killstealing a penta outweigh the counterplay (ooh, I popped Barrier! your ult is on cooldown! ...oh wait I died) that we get "toxic" gameplay.
Yeah, there are definitely some issues there.

One additional thing I'd add is that a lot of extreme implementations of play balance often end up gutting counterplay. For example, I'd argue that the BKB in dota is necessary for DOTA to be balanced, but comes at the cost of shredding a lot of the existing counter-play that can exist around a carry (and some additonal 'counter-counter-play') (as it implicitly counters something like 70% of abilities, many of which are CCs that you'd use to shut down an exponentially scaling character).

At a glance, it itself APPEARS to be counter-play, but it actually reduces the level of nuance and counters occurring by it's existence.

We've run into this a lot. For example, Vlad's pool runs perilously close to this at times, and very long CCs or generally very OP stuff in general can end up in this territory. Optimizing this stuff is tough, and it's a lot of give and take, and we have to ask ourselves very seriously -- does this intended counterplay work? Is this mechanic good for the game? Where does it actually make the game less interesting? Is there a better way? We want to optimize how nuanced, how deep and how competitive the game is.

Sometimes by adding a strong ability, or a strong counter, you reduce the total field of counters available, or the richness of the counters that do exist. It's scary and challenging


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Claw of Time

Member

11-21-2012

?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
2 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claw of Time View Post
?
?


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ObscureClockwork

Senior Member

11-21-2012

wait, so darius's ult, vlad pool, and BKB remove nuances and counterplay innately?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-21-2012
3 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageMinnow View Post
Oh wow. I watched all that earlier today and totally missed that it was Zileas who come up with it. I even thought at the time "Wasn't there a Rioter on the forums saying a lot of stuff like this?" I think it might have been Morello that I'd be thinking of at the time, though, not sure. I imagine the idea is part of the staff's decision making process, not just one guy's idea.

In any case, way to go Zileas.
Thanks, though really, Portnoy and his team did an awesome job building this out.

I'm hoping I can speak on this soon.


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