Nerf early jungle - Riot, you are standing in a position of passive-playing team

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IS13c7fafe7804f7429d10e

Member

11-20-2012

ITT: People defending the aggression monopoly of the jungler.

If there is "no" jungler, you can be aggressive at all times because you never have to fear your aggression will be punished by an enemy gank. The enemy jungler is a constant MIA that creates global insecurity for the lanes. Insecurity leads to passive play of "all" lanes - the jungler may not be able to punish all lane aggression, but since you don't know whether he can punish yours or that at the other side of the map, you don't risk it. The jungler thus becomes the only one who can actually play aggressively without large risk.

Playing aggressively thus costs you extra gold for ward coverage. And the constant money sink just isn't worth the rewards of aggressive play.


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Ashoe

Junior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by violetsandpiper View Post
You have no wards at level 1. You have wards at 7 minutes in the game.
And why don't you have wards at lvl 1 ?
Why can't top lane start with boots 1 pot 1 ward ? why they can't adapt ? Why they can't change from boots +
3 pots ? Especially now, when almost all top laners have great sustain ?
If they decide they don't want to buy a ward, then suffer the consequences.
But no let's make the jungler's game harder, while Riot babysits everyone else...


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Merc

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SheriffV2 View Post

Leashes don't exist anymore, and the Jungle hits harder forcing a Jungler to recall instead of ganking early.
This is my issue. They're trying to force a new play style on the jungler.


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7thHeaven

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neferit View Post
ITT: People defending the aggression monopoly of the jungler.

If there is "no" jungler, you can be aggressive at all times because you never have to fear your aggression will be punished by an enemy gank. The enemy jungler is a constant MIA that creates global insecurity for the lanes. Insecurity leads to passive play of "all" lanes - the jungler may not be able to punish all lane aggression, but since you don't know whether he can punish yours or that at the other side of the map, you don't risk it. The jungler thus becomes the only one who can actually play aggressively without large risk.

Playing aggressively thus costs you extra gold for ward coverage. And the constant money sink just isn't worth the rewards of aggressive play.
Are you sure top lane will play more aggressive after the nerf ?
I will pick Irelia/Nasus and build Philosopher's Stone + Avarice Blade ( +8 gold / 10 sec and bonus 2 gold per kill ) then .......
OMG ! No more jungler go to gank. I can farm in peace until i become super man.

At the mid game, "Nasus hit you with critical attack for 1000 dmg" and "You have been slain"
or :
"Penta kills Irelia "


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Eph289

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Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashoe View Post
And why don't you have wards at lvl 1 ?
Why can't top lane start with boots 1 pot 1 ward ? why they can't adapt ? Why they can't change from boots +
3 pots ? Especially now, when almost all top laners have great sustain ?
If they decide they don't want to buy a ward, then suffer the consequences.
But no let's make the jungler's game harder, while Riot babysits everyone else...
You're either level 14 or a smurf. If you're a smurf, post on your main. If you're really level 14, I doubt your understanding of the game.

You can't start boots/ward/pot toplane against boots/3 pots because that means the jungler isn't needed to kick you around the lane. The other lane can do that. Pick a toplane matchup, say Jax vs. Darius No sustain there. If Jax has 3 HP pots and Darius has 1, all Jax has to do is force two relatively even trades where he forces Darius to burn his HP pot. Now, after the second trade, Jax has 1-2 HP pots left and Darius has none and is low on health. Darius either goes back and forfeits CS/XP or gets zoned by Jax or gets killed by Jax. And given how snowbally top lane is (especially with Jax and/or Darius), giving up one kill likely ensures that you'll be behind for a long time.

Toplane is a fickle game. Either you start ward and get killed by the other toplaner (assuming you weren't already going to lose the matchup due to counterpick) or you skip ward and get killed/zoned by the jungler. Or, the reverse happens to the other guy.

EDIT: In my games and in games that I watch the pros play, they're almost always more aggressive when they know where the jungler is/other jungler is dead. As a jungler, if you want to force fights and aggression with lots of wards on the map, there's this thing called invading/forcing objectives. Early dragon fights are good for this.


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Proelium

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Senior Member

11-20-2012

I agree. I don't know where the downvotes are coming from because this thread seems to be agreed with by anyone commenting. At the very least it's a constructive thread and people need to recognize that.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Well lets say there is a permanent cv or the first 5 minutes top lane so that it is impossible for a jungle to sneak up on you. The question is: Would the lane be passive or aggresive?

IMO what would happen is a lot more trading with each other and one champion winning out. One of them would win the first engage and get an hp advantage or farm advantage. Now what happens? The lane will start to be zoned because one melee based champion can no longer trade with the other.

The problem is melee versus melee when properly played will lead to zoning once one of them gets a small advantage. Additionally if they properly utilize that advantage to ward and prevent jungle pressure after that they can keep their advantage.

Early ganks top lane happen because it is the BEST spot to gank to shut down someone from the opposing team. Removing the ability for jungle to pressure the lane will still allow for snowballs to happen.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Also why does aggression=kills always? Zoning your opponent is aggresion. Maybe not as entertaining to watch but it is aggression none the less.

Singed killing minions between turret 2 and 3 is aggressive. It may not result in kills, but it puts a ton of pressure on.

People keep using these terms synonymously and it bugs me.


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IS1420747fbfb7e639f9e80

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Yea let's make the game even less skill-based and allow lv3 towerdives. ROFL. u guys stoned or some ****?


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7thHeaven

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentaquarkx View Post
Yea let's make the game even less skill-based and allow lv3 towerdives. ROFL. u guys stoned or some ****?
WHUT ? Even Crystal maiden can tank the turret at lv1

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
Singed killing minions between turret 2 and 3 is aggressive. It may not result in kills, but it puts a ton of pressure on.
What did this aggressive thing give you ? Nothing.
Let's compare this action between Axe and Singed

Axe can do this at lv1. The enemy's current trouble is creep will break the tower after few wave, because the turret damage is low, creep will have more time to break and enemy champion cant take damage to protect your turret. This will cause pressure and force them try to chase Axe.

Singed only can do this at lv7+. At this time, enemy is strong enough to clear the wave, singed got 6 CS per wave, enemy got 6 CS too and turret will be safe. And you can get gank anytime of game.

Summary :
Axe : Get 100% gold/exp, high risk
Enemy : Tower break, Tower ks the creep ( get 30~80% gold)

Singed : Get 100% gold/exp, high risk
Enemy : Tower is safe , champion ks turret ( get 80~100% gold)

At the end, there is not point to play this type, the aggressive play doesnt give you the big advantage like Axe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
Maybe not as entertaining to watch but it is aggression none the less.
This is real entertaining
EHOME vs NaVi - Game 1 : 38 - 6 ( 2 kills/ min)
EHOME vs NaVi - Game 2 : 40 - 33 ( 1.35 kills/ min)
EHOME vs NaVi - Game 3 : 23 - 38 ( 1.08 kills/ min)
EHOME vs NaVi - Game 3 : 29 - 12 ( 1.24 kills/ min)

Azubu Frost vs Taipei Assassins - Game 1 : 26 - 28 ( 1.31 kills/ min)
Azubu Frost vs Taipei Assassins - Game 2 : 4 - 13 ( 0.42 kills/ min)
Azubu Frost vs Taipei Assassins - Game 3 : AZF surrendered
Azubu Frost vs Taipei Assassins - Game 4 : 6 - 23 ( 0.7 kills/ min)