Nerf early jungle - Riot, you are standing in a position of passive-playing team

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7thHeaven

Senior Member

11-20-2012

P/s : Sorry for my bad english

Early jungle ganking is not the main reason. Here are some reason that cause passive playing more effective.

1. You cant diving at early game, turret DEALS A TON OF DAMAGE. Passive lane will take it as advantage
2. Warding will prevent aggression. The failed gank cause the aggressive jungler lose a lot exp/gold and force jungler back to farm.
3. 5G/10s item. Top lane people still impose Philosopher's Stone after remove "Heart of Gold", like everyone said "Pick top lane, buy 5g/10s item and win the lane".
___________________

Nerf early jungle is the direct punishment on aggressive team, you force aggressive jungler more passive ?_? . You should improving the reward of aggressive play, encourage/encourage/cheer the aggressive team, not make passive team more aggressive.

The style of western team make me boring. 1st blood after 18 minutes >.>, jungler cant gank lane because support set ward every where.

Let's see the 54 kills game. [GRAND FINAL #1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1owVnryn5R4

1st blood at 3:15 : it happen because olaf didnt have any ward to avoid the gank. There are 1.3 kills/minute..

[GRAND FINAL #2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwo9d...feature=relmfu

Another 1st blood at 3:0 : zyra wastes 2 ward at mid, wastes time to set a ward at bot and get caught when she go set a ward.

Those games are more interesting than 14 kills game.

Recommendations :
1. Reduce the turret damage at early from 152 (+4/min) to 100 (+8/min)
2. Set cooldown for ward, every 3 minutes, there is 1 ward will be created in shop, there are 2 ward at one. Now support must choosing : A. Set 2 wards at bot during that time to protect bot lane. B. give another lane 1 ward to protect 2 lanes and after that, all lane wont be protected in 3 minutes.
3. Change the passive of 5g/10s item to "You gain 50/25/12/6% more gold from assist, the bonus gold depend on number of allies bring bonus gold item"


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penguin

Senior Member

11-20-2012

it needs to be done imo -- here's my explanation why:

Top lane ATM currently is the biggest spot that gets boned by the current jungler. At mid/higher(not sure if it's migrated down yet) elo ranges the standard jungle gank is a fast level 3 with smiteless leash on the first buff. Both junglers are literally expected to adhere to this route as if you don't your top laner can be zoned for like 3 waves if the jungler is patient enough as a level3 skarner/jax/maokai/nocturne/mundo when lanes are just hitting 2 is enough to net a kill if literally any agression is made; especially versus melee top laners like jax or singed. It influences the picks and makes certain champs much riskier.

It's toxic as hell and takes virtually no thought on the junglers' behalf to do so; the new jungle will actually punish this ridiculous early camping. Praise jeebus.


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Vulking

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Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin View Post
it needs to be done imo -- here's my explanation why:

Top lane ATM currently is the biggest spot that gets boned by the current jungler. At mid/higher(not sure if it's migrated down yet) elo ranges the standard jungle gank is a fast level 3 with smiteless leash on the first buff. Both junglers are literally expected to adhere to this route as if you don't your top laner can be zoned for like 3 waves if the jungler is patient enough as a level3 skarner/jax/maokai/nocturne/mundo when lanes are just hitting 2 is enough to net a kill if literally any agression is made; especially versus melee top laners like jax or singed. It influences the picks and makes certain champs much riskier.

It's toxic as hell and takes virtually no thought on the junglers' behalf to do so; the new jungle will actually punish this ridiculous early camping. Praise jeebus.
How will it punish it exactly? after the first clear there is no point in not camping, the jungle give the same gold till minute 11 but is a lot harder, so, camping a lane would be even more prominent because now its even less appealing to go farm the junlge unless you are gonna get the buffs.


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SheriffV2

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulking View Post
How will it punish it exactly? after the first clear there is no point in not camping, the jungle give the same gold till minute 11 but is a lot harder, so, camping a lane would be even more prominent because now its even less appealing to go farm the junlge unless you are gonna get the buffs.
The Jungle constantly gets harder and gives more gold/exp, so the longer you camp, the harder/slower you will clear when you get back. Since you'd be underleveled.

Leashes don't exist anymore, and the Jungle hits harder forcing a Jungler to recall instead of ganking early.

As for Top, just pick Akali or Riven, and 1v2 their Top/Jungle :P


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7thHeaven

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin View Post
it needs to be done imo -- here's my explanation why:

Top lane ATM currently is the biggest spot that gets boned by the current jungler. At mid/higher(not sure if it's migrated down yet) elo ranges the standard jungle gank is a fast level 3 with smiteless leash on the first buff. Both junglers are literally expected to adhere to this route as if you don't your top laner can be zoned for like 3 waves if the jungler is patient enough as a level3 skarner/jax/maokai/nocturne/mundo when lanes are just hitting 2 is enough to net a kill if literally any agression is made; especially versus melee top laners like jax or singed. It influences the picks and makes certain champs much riskier.

It's toxic as hell and takes virtually no thought on the junglers' behalf to do so; the new jungle will actually punish this ridiculous early camping. Praise jeebus.
isnt zoning a manifestation of aggressive playing ?
This will effect to bot lane gank, do you wanna to see 1st blood happen at 30:00 or zero kill game ?


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Talisid

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Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thHeaven View Post
isnt zoning a manifestation of aggressive playing ?
This will effect to bot lane gank, do you wanna to see 1st blood happen at 30:00 or zero kill game ?
Zoning is fine, but zoning starting at 3mins into the game? Its detrimental to everyone playing top lane and kills a lot of champion diversity in that lane.


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TheDjinni

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thHeaven View Post
Nerf early jungle is the direct punishment on aggressive team, you force aggressive jungler more passive ?_? . You should improving the reward of aggressive play, encourage/encourage/cheer the aggressive team, not make passive team more aggressive.
It's the threat of a jungler ganking at any time that encourages passive play. Once that threat is removed, lanes feel safer making aggressive plays and lanes become more aggressive.

A pair of lane opponents are typically on relatively equal ground to start so being aggressive or passive is a choice. The possibility of a jungler ganking immediately turns that equal footing relationship on it's head, drastically increasing the risk of aggression. The more aggressive you are the more vulnerable to ganks and counter-ganks you are.

It doesn't increase passivity in lane to encourage passivity or less activity on the part of junglers. It's an inverse relationship; the more active the junglers the less active the lanes are, and vice versa.


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7thHeaven

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talisid View Post
Zoning is fine, but zoning starting at 3mins into the game? Its detrimental to everyone playing top lane and kills a lot of champion diversity in that lane.
As i highlight in the recommendations :
Now, Support must deciding which lane they should put the ward.

Ex :
Set a ward at both top/bot lane : Jungler cant gank from 1:00 to 4:00 of the game. From 4:00 to 7:00, this will be gank time of jungler. After, support can buy ward again.

Set a ward at bot lane only : Now this lane cant be ganked by jungler at early game. But your team will throw top lane.

Dont forget you got 1 extra ward from S3 mastery. The safe time can up to 1:00 - 5:00.

The result that i wanna to see is : sharing the safeness of bot lane.
__________________________________
The current safeness is :
Early game : Top : gankable, Mid : gankable. Bot : Un-gankable
Early game (after back to base to buy more ward) : Top : Un-gankable, Mid : gankable. Bot : Un-gankable
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After nerf :
Early game : Top : un-gankable, Mid : gankable. Bot : Un-gankable
Early game (after back to base to buy more ward) : Top : Un-gankable, Mid : gankable. Bot : Un-gankable
__________________________________
My recommendations :
Safe time ( 3 minutes after dangerous time ) : Top : un-gankable, Mid : gankable. Bot : un-gankable
Dangerous time ( 3 minutes after safe time ) : Top : gankable, Mid : gankable. Bot : gankable


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Its more passive for the jungler not lanes. With little threat from the jungler they can actually put aggression on without worrying about a jungler sitting there all day. Also reducing tower damage would just make the game even more snowbally. You would not be able to come back to your lane just from being a kill or two down. As it is now diving someone is quite easy if you out number them and have some cc. especially with barrier and that new item that protects from tower shots.


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ZankouHoshizora

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Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thHeaven View Post
Ex :
Set a ward at both top/bot lane : Jungler cant gank from 1:00 to 4:00 of the game. From 4:00 to 7:00, this will be gank time of jungler. After, support can buy ward again.
What's going to stop laners from playing much, much more passively from 4:00 to 7:00 when they know they're vulnerable?